Discussion: Outer Space

Are completely unaware of the water cycle?
Where did the rain come from?

The rain came from God. This is the first time it ever rained.

Chikablam:

Let me just say that post on Page 1 in response was very long. Let me just begin by asking you how can you believe in the Big Bang Theory when you yourself admitted that you don't know what it actually is? I also want to point out that all of the Biblical Verse you used were from the Old Testament. If you want to know the straight truth about things, how about you read the first four books of the New Testment. God himself, Jesus, had a certain way of telling how things are. And of course it is more scientifically plausible, because scientists created the theory. The creation of the universe was such a supernatural event. If one thing differed from how it happened, the universe might not be anything like it is. It took the supernatural force of God to make everything fall into place perfectly. Any theory besides that God created the Universe has no adequate explanation (probably because they are all man-made theories).

Saying that God didn't create the Universe is like saying Jesus wasn't Christ. And there is definitely scientific evidence that he was (Besides the miracles he performed that are listed in the Bible). And if you don't believe that, here are a few things I'd like you to think about (or even research):

1. We know that Jesus did live. There is proof that he was one of the men that Pilate had killed. The reason we know he is Christ is because he rose from the dead. So, I ask you if you think he didn't rise from the dead: Where is his body?

2. How did his imagine appear on the Shroud of Turin?

You don't need to respond to these questions, for I already know the answers to them.

I think it would be best if we just agree to disagree. We will all find out in the end who is right and who is wrong. There is no use arguing; it can only lead to bad things. How about we all just get back on subject and have fun doing so?

If you respond with some comment other than "Okay, let's get back on subject" or something close to that, I won't respond. Just wanted to let you know.

Better then I could have explained it!

KingofCorn said:

The rain came from God. This is the first time it ever rained.

But then where did the rain go if there currently is not enough water on the planet to cover all the mountains?
Did god take it away again?
For an all-knowing and wise god, that seems like a not very clever way to cleanse the world

Warrior, I'd love to just let it be, but there are a few points I have to call you up on:

Warrior13 said:

Chikablam:

Let me just say that post on Page 1 in response was very long. Let me just begin by asking you how can you believe in the Big Bang Theory when you yourself admitted that you don't know what it actually is?

Its something that I just accept happened. I don't think creationism is at all possible, so until a better theory is put forward, I accept that the Big Bang is the most likely way the universe came into being.

Warrior13 said:

I also want to point out that all of the Biblical Verse you used were from the Old Testament. If you want to know the straight truth about things, how about you read the first four books of the New Testment. God himself, Jesus, had a certain way of telling how things are.

Genesis is Old Testament, is it not? Why is Genesis more acceptable than the others, when they are all compiled together? Also, I have no idea, but does the New Testament say anything on the Creation?

Warrior13 said:

And of course it is more scientifically plausible, because scientists created the theory.

They thought of it because it is the most scientifically plausible, not the other way around. Plausibility isn't something that is just granted by who makes the claim, unlike religious claims. If I came up with a scientific theory on the universe's creation that disproved the old one and encompassed more, it would be accepted, because that's how science works. However, if I claimed that God had spoken to me and told me how the universe was actually created, no one would believe me, and in fact most people would call me insane.

Warrior13 said:

The creation of the universe was such a supernatural event. If one thing differed from how it happened, the universe might not be anything like it is.

If things had of been different, we wouldn't know it. For example, imagine an alternate world where the words for red and yellow were switched. Would they be aware of the difference? No.
Now imagine a world where Neutrons were actually positively charged, and Electrons had no charge, but were kept in the vicinity of the nucleus by gravity. Would things be different? Certainly, but again we would not be aware of the difference. If something in the creation differed, of course the world would be different, but how would we know?

Warrior13 said:

It took the supernatural force of God to make everything fall into place perfectly. Any theory besides that God created the Universe has no adequate explanation (probably because they are all man-made theories).

Imagine two islands, one has a volcano on it and is devastated, the other is lush and green, and an ancient tribe has lived there for many millenia. You could thank the lord that he placed the tribe on the lush island, or you could realise that they could not have lived on the lava island, regardless of whether god wanted them to live there or not. Similarly, living conditions are perfect here on earth because life could not have flourished here if it wasn't.

Warrior13 said:

Saying that God didn't create the Universe is like saying Jesus wasn't Christ. And there is definitely scientific evidence that he was (Besides the miracles he performed that are listed in the Bible). And if you don't believe that, here are a few things I'd like you to think about (or even research):

1. We know that Jesus did live. There is proof that he was one of the men that Pilate had killed. The reason we know he is Christ is because he rose from the dead. So, I ask you if you think he didn't rise from the dead: Where is his body?

2. How did his imagine appear on the Shroud of Turin?

I'm kind of indifferent on whether Jesus lived. Sure, he may have, but I doubt he was the son of god. However, creation is old testament, while Jesus is New testament, which are completely different, and are seperated by about 500 years, so disclaiming one is not necessarily disclaiming the others.
Regardless though,
1: Have you ever heard of Genghis Khan? He has been proved to have existed. However, were is his body? Nobody knows. Therefore, he has risen again, and ascended into heaven.
See how ridiculous it sounds?

2: The Shroud of Turin has been carbon dated to come from the medieval period, so unless Jesus was around for a lot more than 3 days, I don't think that's him

The universe can be infinite without space, the known universe is finite. Space, by definition is a three dimensional plane, even a vacuum has space in it. As to what is beyond the known universe after space ends no one knows. It's similar to asking what is inside a black hole or the beginning of time, where space and time itself breaks down.

Warrior13 said:

Breloom: No one said anything about Christianity being the only religion. That's ridiculous. And I'd like for you to tell me how it's mixing religion and science? The Bible is a historic document that does indeed describe historical events.

I meant that he pointed out the Bible as if it is the only correct religion.

Do you have any proof the Bible is indeed historic and true? How are you sure that the Bible wasn't just written by a bunch of liars who wanted to create a new religion?

All your arguments are basically "well you see the Bible was written and it must be true so science makes no sense".

If you can't even debate by seeing past your own bias you should just stop debating.

« Last edited by Dark Breloom on Sep 28th 2013 »

I know this is a double post but let me ask you this:

If you believe the Bible is true and a historical document, do you believe that ancient Egyptian stories, Greek stories, and Roman stories are all historically true? What about Hinduism and Buddhism? Islam? Good luck not contradicting yourself.

« Last edited by Dark Breloom on Sep 28th 2013 »

Children, let's stop the ignorance here. Warrior, KandyKorn, there's no point in arguing religion versus science. There will always be evidence that can be curved towards both aspects depending on viewpoint, and as a result, there will be an indefinite amount of bickering back and forth with zero resolution.

Now, as a Christian, I will rebut just a couple horribly ignorant claims from BOTH sides, and this will be the end of the conversation on religion.

Chikablam said:

But then where did the rain go if there currently is not enough water on the planet to cover all the mountains?
Did god take it away again?

It's safe to assert that, under the assumption of an old earth (for easier argumentation), in accordance with the theory of plate tectonics, mountains could have potentially been minimal or nonexistant. Point 1. Stop bickering.

Warrior13 said:

Chikablam:

Let me just say that post on Page 1 in response was very long. Let me just begin by asking you how can you believe in the Big Bang Theory when you yourself admitted that you don't know what it actually is?

God said "Let there be XYZ, and 'bang,' there it was. We have no evidence of HOW God created the earth, and thus, it is just as ignorant to claim that the big bang did NOT happen as you claim it is to claim it DID happen. We simply don't know how the universe came into being, and most likely, we never will. Point 2.

Warrior13 said:

I also want to point out that all of the Biblical Verse you used were from the Old Testament. If you want to know the straight truth about things, how about you read the first four books of the New Testment. God himself, Jesus, had a certain way of telling how things are.

To append Warrior's point, this is not a matter of the time of writing or testament. This is simply a horribly ignorant way to take verses entirely outside of context and twist them to how I want them to read. I can fabricate any verse to justify whatever I want to do, if I take it out of context. I can also take any law and break it in order to justify my crime.

Yet I still go to jail for my crime. Why? Simple. You can't take laws out of context. Point 3.

Warrior13 said:

And of course it is more scientifically plausible, because scientists created the theory.

This statement is ignorant.

Chikablam said:

Plausibility isn't something that is just granted by who makes the claim, 1) unlike religious claims . 2) If I came up with a scientific theory on the universe's creation that disproved the old one and encompassed more, it would be accepted, because that's how science works.

Both of these statements are ignorant.
1) Religion does not do that.
2) That is not how science works.

[quote=Chikablam]

Warrior13 said:

It took the supernatural force of God to make everything fall into place perfectly. Any theory besides that God created the Universe has no adequate explanation (probably because they are all man-made theories).

Imagine two islands, one has a volcano on it and is devastated, the other is lush and green, and an ancient tribe has lived there for many millenia. You could thank the lord that he placed the tribe on the lush island, or you could realise that they could not have lived on the lava island, regardless of whether god wanted them to live there or not. Similarly, living conditions are perfect here on earth because life could not have flourished here if it wasn't.[/quote]
1) His statement had nothing to do with how life exists on earth. Ergo, your island analogy is unrelated.
2) Even if it was, the logic is flawed. There is no contradiction between assuming that people merely survived on a good island and assuming God put them there. Either way, God would be praised for the survival of those people who live on that island. Your next point is a logical fallacy. The living conditions on earth are not perfect BECAUSE life flourishes. However, life does flourish as a result of perfect living conditions. Point 4.

Warrior13 said:

Saying that God didn't create the Universe is like saying Jesus wasn't Christ.

This is not how you make a simile.

Chikablam said:

...creation is old testament, while Jesus is New testament, which are completely different, and are seperated by about 500 years, so disclaiming one is not necessarily disclaiming the others.

This also is an ignorant statement regarding Christianity and Bibliology.

Chikablam said:

Regardless though,
1: Have you ever heard of Genghis Khan? He has been proved to have existed. However, were is his body? Nobody knows. Therefore, he has risen again, and ascended into heaven.
See how ridiculous it sounds?

This is a uselessly unrelated parallel in which a war leader's body (most likely either cremated or thrown to the sea) is not found, compared to potentially the God of the universe rising from the dead. What a senseless comparison. Furthermore, saying "See how ridiculous it sounds" does not further your point whatsoever. It only sounds ridiculous under the pretext that you disagree with Christianity. From the viewpoint of Christianity as well as a majority of other religions, a God's rising is perfectly feasible. 6.

Dark Breloom said:

I know this is a double post but let me ask you this:

If you believe the Bible is true and a historical document, do you believe that ancient Egyptian stories, Greek stories, and Roman stories are all historically true? What about Hinduism and Buddhism? Islam? Good luck not contradicting yourself.

And here's another ignorant question.
You immediately replaced the word "documentation" with "stories." They cannot be compared. Yes, I believe that Egyptian documentation, Roman documentation, and a vast majority of other documentations are historically true, because they are records. 7.

This discussion is over.

The discussion was over. Me and Warrior walked away from it.

@OP the space-time is not infinite, though nothing stops it from being infinite. You can measure the radius of the observable universe (assuming it to be spherical, the topology of the universe is really flat). Also you have to assume that the universe had no beginning and most modern cosmological models suggest that the universe isn't infinitely old, though that could be the case.

Space has a potential to be infinite into the future and in theories such as Eternal Inflation suggest just that.


oh and having said that, I'd like to take part in the discussion (hopefully I can make out sometime). Like Taylor suggested, there were some ignorant claims regarding Big bang cosmology and the way science works.

Finally a good answer.

dx_hbk said:

@OP the space-time is not infinite, though nothing stops it from being infinite. You can measure the radius of the observable universe (assuming it to be spherical, the topology of the universe is really flat). Also you have to assume that the universe had no beginning and most modern cosmological models suggest that the universe isn't infinitely old, though that could be the case.

Space has a potential to be infinite into the future and in theories such as Eternal Inflation suggest just that.


oh and having said that, I'd like to take part in the discussion (hopefully I can make out sometime). Like Taylor suggested, there were some ignorant claims regarding Big bang cosmology and the way science works.

I forbid you from entering the discussion. D:<

tbug2007 said:

dx_hbk said:

@OP the space-time is not infinite, though nothing stops it from being infinite. You can measure the radius of the observable universe (assuming it to be spherical, the topology of the universe is really flat). Also you have to assume that the universe had no beginning and most modern cosmological models suggest that the universe isn't infinitely old, though that could be the case.

Space has a potential to be infinite into the future and in theories such as Eternal Inflation suggest just that.


oh and having said that, I'd like to take part in the discussion (hopefully I can make out sometime). Like Taylor suggested, there were some ignorant claims regarding Big bang cosmology and the way science works.

I forbid you from entering the discussion. D:<

You can't do this to me tay tay ;__;. I try and not argue about religion any more but still fail, do love to talk about the interaction between cosmology and God though xD. How about you and me have an other round at this for old times sake when both of us have some time on our hands ; D ? Can show everyone that you can be civil and have mutual respect when discussing these topics. Oh and you are missed ._.

Sounds like fun.

KingofCorn said:

Sounds like fun.

Hey just a question. Are you Christian? Idk its just that I get this really strange feeling that you are...idk why.

I am a Christian yes.

Well, I guess I'm the only member who isn't Christian. But just a question, if God created the universe and everything, who or what created God. If the big bang happened, how did one explosion happen out of no where? And if God created the universe, how could one person alone make everything? (there may be information in the Bible so don't be annoyed, I've never even touched a Bible)

God was always there. He is all powerful and can do anything, and that's how he created the earth. This is all found in the first chapter of Genesis in the Bible. Bibles don't bite, so if you ever want to read the chapter, you'll be okay. ;)

As for the Big Bang, I've heard / read somewhere that it supposedly happened when two particles/elements colided with each other which resulted in the Big Bang.

« Last edited by Warrior13 on Jan 18th 2014 »

I saw a book at Barnes & Noble called The Brick Bible. It's the new testament in comic book form...but with Legos. It makes Revelations way more scary.