Homosexuality Debates

I think lesbians, bis, and homosexuals are being out-casted too much. They are people! Do they breathe air? Yes. Do they have a heart, lungs, a brain? Yes. I don't think your sexual orientation matters just as long as your happy in your own skin and happy with your life. If you take the time and effort just to belittle a gay person, you must not be very happy with your own life if you have to make yourself feel superior. To all of the gay people haters out there, just leave them alone!

Nice, I think you homophobes need something to do with your life. But there will always be stupidity in this world, that's a fact, people will always hate Homosexuals, Bisexuals, or any other type of sexuality that isn't normal to them.

- Your personal views on gay rights- I believe they should have the same rights as other people, just not marriage, which I have explained below.
- Whether or not homosexuality is a "choice" - Sexuality is affected by the first three years or so of your life when your brain is developing. If you get a LOT more affection from your same-sex parent than your parent of the opposite sex, chances are you'll turn out as a homosexual.
- The issue of gay marriage - I personally don't think it should be legalised. I'm not a homophobe, the reason is below.
- Religious views on gay marriage - Marriage was created by God between a man and a woman. I think homosexuals should be allowed to live together and be long-term partners, but not get married.

On 03-Feb-2008 cheating-is-good said:

Nice, I think you homophobes need something to do with your life. But there will always be stupidity in this world, that's a fact, people will always hate Homosexuals, Bisexuals, or any other type of sexuality that isn't normal to them.

You have a point. But I think acceptance will come eventually. After all, 100 years ago, it would have been thoroughly inconceivable to most if not all people that whites and blacks could live alongside each other without segregation of any kind: yet look where we are today.

On 04-Feb-2008 Da Corbster said:

- Your personal views on gay rights- I believe they should have the same rights as other people, just not marriage, which I have explained below.
- Whether or not homosexuality is a "choice" - Sexuality is affected by the first three years or so of your life when your brain is developing. If you get a LOT more affection from your same-sex parent than your parent of the opposite sex, chances are you'll turn out as a homosexual.
- The issue of gay marriage - I personally don't think it should be legalised. I'm not a homophobe, the reason is below.
- Religious views on gay marriage - Marriage was created by God between a man and a woman. I think homosexuals should be allowed to live together and be long-term partners, but not get married.

- And yet marriage is a right, surely? So you don't think they should get the same rights entirely.

- So Freud would have us believe. However, please remember that what you've said there is just theoretical, not solid fact. For one thing, what you've said doesn't allow for genetic correlations, like those mentioned by Catharsis in his last post.

- Ah, but marriage isn't limited to Christianity; it predates it by centuries, if not millennia. It's even arguable as to whether God intended marriage to necessarily be between a man and a woman; could you kindly point me to where that is written? Regardless of that, surely your religious views aren't basis to deny all homosexuals, regardless of religion, the right to marriage?

OK, I just checked the Bible, it only mentions husband and wife, and gay marriage is not mentioned. So that could be interpreted in either of these two ways:

1) God did bot intend on gay marriage ever happening.
2) God did not condemn gay marriage, so he doesn't mind it.

So that didn't really help much...

No. But you still can't deny that, regardless of Christian views on the subject, disallowing gay marriage for anyone, regardless of their beliefs, is forcing your beliefs upon them.

Regarding the issue of gay marriage, my knowledge is sorely limited to that which pertains to American culture. However, in the United States, married citizens have certain perks over single ones. They can file taxes as one entity rather than two and they get certain deductions on some areas (as they can be considered codependents if only one of them is earning an income). So, even if marriage can be traced to certain religious traditions, it is no longer only a union between two people under God - it is a union between two citizens under government. Therefore, denying someone - anyone - the legal right to marry is directly limiting their rights as citizens. And limiting someone's rights for the sole purpose of religious views is, in America, illegal. Thus, separation of Church and state.

Just thought I'd throw that in here.

On 04-Feb-2008 Da Corbster said:

- Your personal views on gay rights- I believe they should have the same rights as other people, just not marriage, which I have explained below.
- Whether or not homosexuality is a "choice" - Sexuality is affected by the first three years or so of your life when your brain is developing. If you get a LOT more affection from your same-sex parent than your parent of the opposite sex, chances are you'll turn out as a homosexual.
- The issue of gay marriage - I personally don't think it should be legalised. I'm not a homophobe, the reason is below.
- Religious views on gay marriage - Marriage was created by God between a man and a woman. I think homosexuals should be allowed to live together and be long-term partners, but not get married.

"Whether or not homosexuality is a "choice" - Sexuality is affected by the first three years or so of your life when your brain is developing. If you get a LOT more affection from your same-sex parent than your parent of the opposite sex, chances are you'll turn out as a homosexual."

Umm, no. Personal experience would disprove that. I know people who don't have opposite-sex parents who are heterosexual, and I know people that only have opposite-sex parents who are homosexual.

yeah, that's just rediculous.

Homosexuality results from natural brain processings of what one is physically and mentally attracted to, be man or woman (or both).

And the chances of that being a deep seated psychological trauma/intense experience being absolutely zero? Hardly.

I'm not literally saying that "They had a choice" here, but merely adding to the pile of possibilities: they may not have been able to do much about it, but it's not something inherent like genetics... perhaps something akin to the "3 years of brain development while you were a baby", but not exactly that (but then, psych 101; you define what you're attracted to before the age of 3... its not explained very well, but it's a widely known "fact" among shrinks)

It's too dynamic an outcome to decide on one sole influential factor... for example, the affection you receive from your same/opposite sex parents could be a significant aiding factor, but not significant enough to dictate the sexuality of the child alone... (duh, but you guys looked as if you needed to know that...)

On 06-Feb-2008 Fwank said:

And the chances of that being a deep seated psychological trauma/intense experience being absolutely zero? Hardly.

I'm not literally saying that "They had a choice" here, but merely adding to the pile of possibilities: they may not have been able to do much about it, but it's not something inherent like genetics... perhaps something akin to the "3 years of brain development while you were a baby", but not exactly that (but then, psych 101; you define what you're attracted to before the age of 3... its not explained very well, but it's a widely known "fact" among shrinks)

It's too dynamic an outcome to decide on one sole influential factor... for example, the affection you receive from your same/opposite sex parents could be a significant aiding factor, but not significant enough to dictate the sexuality of the child alone... (duh, but you guys looked as if you needed to know that...)

Ultimately, does it matter whether it's down to genetics or environmental factors? Even if homosexuality is caused by "psychological trauma" (which I doubt), it would still seem to indicate that it isn't a choice.

Still, I don't find the debate particularly relevant to the actual issue of gay rights, even though it often comes up - even if it is a choice, it doesn't meant that it's wrong as a result. For example, let's say being Catholic is a choice (even though you can't necessarily choose what you believe, but that's not to discuss in this thread.). Does this mean that Catholics should be denied rights and discriminated against?

« Last edited by Catharsis on Feb 7th 2008 »

What?

Let's just say someone chose to be retarded by acting like an uncoordinated idiot and salivates over everything/one/where they come across.

Rhetorical question: do we treat the fake ****** in the same regards as we would a natural born, mentally disabled, physically disadvantaged but "I can't help it, I'm retarded" individual?

Undeniably, the nature of a person's sexuality - choice or inherent - does inevitably matter, but the same barrier exists for homosexuality/bisexuality and the scenario I've given above; there's no way to tell (for argument's sake, anyway)

You can bet society will be willing to brand it as the immoral state of being as soon as they get one authoritative figure claiming that it's "a choice of the individual" even in the slightest, as they do with all things. It'll be so "wrong" you'd think anything even vaguely negative is "homosexual". (let's not forget the implications behind homosexuality being a choice here; marriage frauds, most obviously)

The real issue in my opinion stems from the culture rather than the sexuality in question; are the human rights of homosexually oriented individuals being infringed upon? Certainly not to the extent that they're not recognized as human beings (don't beg to differ; please recognize the people who do differentiate between individuals of different sexualities in a harsh way as poorly educated). Most these "rights" are for name-sakes...

... I don't know, maybe it's because I live in Melbourne, I'm perhaps too ignorant to realize how bad homo/bi's can have it in other areas, but that's just old school prejudice, and I still believe prejudice of any kind is never justified...

I don't think you understood why I said it wasn't relevant.

I'm saying that just because something is a choice it doesn't mean it's "wrong" or "bad", which is why I gave the example of Catholics. Whether or not homosexuality is a choice is irrelevant, as it's not bad either way - unless you can find a reason why?

"Undeniably, the nature of a person's sexuality - choice or inherent - does inevitably matter"

Only in the way that people as a whole will view it, surely? In any case, I have yet to find a good argument for it being a choice. And I like to think myself something of an expert on the matter.

"The real issue in my opinion stems from the culture rather than the sexuality in question; are the human rights of homosexually oriented individuals being infringed upon?"

Well, yes and no. In some areas, homosexuals are treated no differently from any other individuals, in some, they're just discriminated against, and in some, they'd be put to death (Mostly fundamentalist Muslim countries, from what I've heard). It all depends where you are.

« Last edited by Catharsis on Sep 9th 2010 »

Like I already said: if it's a choice, it makes it bad.

Not to any absolute extent, but enough so that society would be able to justify prosecution, and I've already mentioned the exploitations behind a gay act for personal gain in other threads.

And no I'm not saying it's a choice, I'm pretty much saying if it is one, people would surely be a lot less tolerant of homosexuals.

Also, on your final note: I was referring more to the mentality of the whole "human rights" thing... being discriminated against can happen regardless of your gender/race/sexuality, but in terms of the law, there doesn't seem to be anything that legally binds homosexuals to anything undesirable, is there?

If there is, I'd imagine it'd be more because the system takes time to change, rather than the system was made to single out homosexuals... which is exactly the case here in Auz, the system takes its time to catch up (like making same-sex couples legal parents of their respective children and recognizing children of different biological parents are siblings)

While we're on this subject though, what are some of the issues regarding rights that you've been interested in?

Like I already said: if it's a choice, it makes it bad.

Not to any absolute extent, but enough so that society would be able to justify prosecution, and I've already mentioned the exploitations behind a gay act for personal gain in other threads.

... what?

Ok, surely by exactly the same logic, the Spanish Inquisition were perfectly within their moral rights to torture and kill people for being non-Catholics? And still would be today? Also, please enlighten me as to these "exploitations of a gay act for personal gain" you've supposedly mentioned elsewhere...

Operative word there being "their" moral rights, and if they were in power today and still felt the same way then yes, they'd probably feel well justified in doing so.

Point being, it may not be right nor wrong, but if it's a choice it generally makes it unacceptable, especially if it's something undesirable to the community/society itself.

I'm merely pointing out a probable trend, not literally saying "if it's a choice = absolutely bad" and I'm a bit too retarded to word it better to avoid confusion/misconceptions... (no seriously, hang over, blah...)

As for exploitations: Marriage frauds?

I could argue with you that moral rights change little to not at all over time, but we already had this debate several months ago, and didn't get very far with it...

Point being, it may not be right nor wrong, but if it's a choice it generally makes it unacceptable, especially if it's something undesirable to the community/society itself.

I think I see where you're coming from now. You're saying that, if it's a choice, society won't accept it, right? Well, if that's the case, I'd say that we're not arguing what would happen, we're aruging what should happen. (Or I may sitll not be grasping your point, in which case, very sorry, but please reiterate...)

As for exploitations: Marriage frauds?

I still don't entirely see where you're going with this, although that may be partly due to my lack of knowledge marital law... please explain further.

ice cold killer: go read the rules before you post again, post deleted.

I dont think being gay is a choice, your just like it through your genes. It has nothing to do with were you live, the people your around, how you live or basically anything else then that people are born like it just like hair colour and your finger tips.