The official debate of the ultimate character...

...It's either Sheik or Fox, it's gotta be... Both are top tier, right?

Fox has infinite combos. Potentially instant pwnage just with that alone. Fox is just more technically demanding and pays for his mistakes WAY more than Sheik, which is why it's generally thought of as a toss-up between Fox and Sheik. Really, however, Fox is superior.

I'd say neither.I stink with them.

I suck with Fox. I can't seem to use him right.

BUT! You forget that Sheik has an infinite combo, too, and I use it all the time.

I prefer C. Falcon.

I prefer Yoshi and Link.Im also good with mario and peach.
For some reason Yoshi is strong.

Link is my BEST.

i'm probably the only gfaqer here that seriously says marth is the best in the game. he may well be the only character that beats fox, falco and peach (though those matchups are all close), and he can go toe to toe with any character in the game.

they're all really close though. i think it's important to look at the matchups before deciding what character is the best. countercharacters play a big role in this, and, say, a single positive matchup against sheik or marth is way more important than positive matchups against the entire low tier.

Marth/Peach is even my friend. Unless the Peach doesn't know what she's doing. Or it's Ken's Marth. I heard Falco/Marth was pretty even too, though don't quote me on it.

I think that the best overall character would be Zelda/Sheik. Sheik beats Marth and Ganon for Zelda (though together...they rape Marth), Zelda beats IC's and Falco for Sheik. And Zelda/Fox is probably the 2nd most even match IMO, behind Peach/Ganon. Zelda/Sheik beats Peach, Falcon, Samus, ect: everyone else.

On 16-Aug-2005 Mask-o-Sheik said:

i'm probably the only gfaqer here that seriously says marth is the best in the game. he may well be the only character that beats fox, falco and peach (though those matchups are all close), and he can go toe to toe with any character in the game.

they're all really close though. i think it's important to look at the matchups before deciding what character is the best. countercharacters play a big role in this, and, say, a single positive matchup against sheik or marth is way more important than positive matchups against the entire low tier.

Definitely. Naturally, I'm going with the overall picture like how the tiers were decided... But in the end, the character who'll technically be the best doesn't really matter. The actual matchups matter more.

well, you could determine who's the best with matchups. technically, if you had all the matchups (like what ritt was originally intended to do), you could use some mathematics to determine various aspects of what the tier list should be. and i speculate it would be a lot more accurate than people just taking into account general character strengths and weaknesses. that would take a lot of time though, and i usually find it better to simply look at and analyze various important matchups and see which ones would be useful/detrimental and to whom.

another thing to look at is the character's usage in tournaments. for instance, take kirby, who can reasonably take sheik and ganon. who's going to be more useful, in a counter-character standpoint? kirby, though his matches against everybody else that matters are pretty bad, can serve as a secondary character to work in conjunction with, oh, marth, who has a fair amount of trouble with sheik and ganon. this type of back-scratching usage allows lower-tiers to be used at much more of an extent than we see (since most people just use one char, and the ones that double up usually do so with fox and sheik, or some other high tier). the question brings in influences in two directions - if people do starting going to tourneys with azen-like lineups, matchups against lower tiers become increasingly important. but to become useful, lower-tiered characters have to break even or win against some rather hard-to-beat upper tier (captain falcon has a lot of these matches, it seems >_>). i don't know how this would work out ;)

Zelda v capt lol fun match.

MookieRah is supposedly 'developing an army of low tiers to counter all the high tiers'. but then again he's crazy.

Hmm... Would it be possible for a player to master BOTH shiek and zelda? I'd just love to see someone shift to zelda before dieng, then pwning another player. That would be quite interesting, actualy.

RyokoYaksa plays a Zelda/Sheik, IIRC.

Yep. Mostly he uses Sheik until like 80 and then goes for a kick. I've adapated that style as a subset of my own, so that I can. It's a actually a good mind game.

I noticed in a couple vids a switch to Sheik for needling edgeguard, and then starting off the next stock like that, switch to zelda for the kick finish, start the next stock like THAT, etc. It was pretty neat to watch. >.>

I use utilt again and again about 3 times, then I use usmash, then I jump up and use uair. Pity Sheik doesn't have any moves to bring foes to the ground, rather than watching them sail through the air for the next 10 seconds.

On 16-Aug-2005 darkboarder_77 said:

I suck with Fox. I can't seem to use him right.

BUT! You forget that Sheik has an infinite combo, too, and I use it all the time.

Sheik has infinite combos? closest thing to that is d-throw chain but...

On 17-Aug-2005 darkboarder_77 said:

I use utilt again and again about 3 times, then I use usmash, then I jump up and use uair. Pity Sheik doesn't have any moves to bring foes to the ground, rather than watching them sail through the air for the next 10 seconds.

well, that's in case if u wanna be zelda again, and transform

Duo Lon, Storm, Shin Akuma, and Sunrise W12.

Oh, you mean in SSBM. Never mind.