The SSBM tier list

I still dont see any problems versus ANY of the high tiers... (save luigi... in my book he's high)

if anything, he does extremely well against mario and doc, better than marth. Roy can still play the range game against them, and mario and doc cannot combo roy like they can marth.

meh...maybe roy does belong in high. his matchups seem to work nicely for him, and he doesn't really have a top/upper tier *counter*, as pikachu and ness do.

i don't know roy too well...can he combo mario/doc as well as marth can?

"I still dont see any problems versus ANY of the high tiers"

Jiggs/IC's/Probably Ganon/Doc pose problems for Roy.

"he doesn't really have a top/upper tier *counter*"

Sheik, Peach, and Samus rape Roy, as does Falco (but to a lesser extent) on projectiles alone, not to mention recovery rape + survivability. I'd think he'd have a problem with Capt too, but I'm not sure.

Roy can do well versus only a couple of the higher tiers. The rest either rape him or have a slight advantage.

And I heard Roy does well versus Ganon. I don't know how that works though...

And Peach rapes Roy for different reasons then projectiles.

And IMO Roy does well against the Marios. That's one of his only good matchups since they can't edgeguard him for **** and he can edgeguard them.

The Mario's can edgeguard, its just alot harder and involves falling into a cape at the precise moment. But yeah, hard as hell.

When I said can't edgeguard for **** I meant they can't edgeguard well. They don't have as many options and it would be incredibly hard. And even then it still may not work because if the Roy player sweetspots correctly and they're trying to cape, won't work. If they edgehog and Roy goes above, Roy recovers pretty fast after his up-b.

Can someone check the landing lag for both Marth and Roy's up-b's?

dolphin slash: 34
blazer: 30

quick attack: 4
vanish: 4
farore: 4
teleport: 4
pk thunder: 4
parasol: 4

... the list goes on for a while.

in any case, both marth and roy are kind of screwed if they're forced to land onstage. whether the opponent just *stands* and ftilts in the other direction or does something more elaborate like a ledgehop bair, marth and roy aren't really difficult to edgeguard at all.

Ice Climbers are really that high up on the list? I'm really bad with them I guess.. Anyone have tips for them?

"What big problems does luigi have from the top to high tiers?

far as I know, he's pretty dead even with the high tiers, and on the fastfallers of the top and upper tiers... once you get up to mid percents he has some pretty sick combo's. He can combo roy to hell at 0%..."

Doc's pills completely screw over his approach; Luigi's wd isn't very flexible. If he's wding towards Doc when Doc has a pill out, he can't really put himself in a winning situation. He can shield the pill, and then possibly shield a bunch more pills, and end up right where he started from all the shield pushback. You can thank his lack of traction. Dodging one pill essentially means eating the two to sixteen other pills that follow. Attacking the pill works, but quick spacing isn't Luigi's specialty, and that's crucial when projectile cancelling so many times in a row. Luigi can also retreat with a backwards wd, which does nothing except keep him from getting hit. I could go on, but I won't. Luigi can't deal with pills.

Defensive Luigis never win - he has practically no dashdance, his wd isn't suitable for counterattacks, shielding pushes him out of his already non-stellar attack range, sidesteps never work in competitive play anymore, he doesn't have a turtle-friendly projectile like Falco's, and the list continues. Neither Doc nor Luigi is that great in the combo department, not only because of their low fallspeed, but also because they're not quite as combo-friendly as many other characters in general.

Doc has a much easier time killing Luigi in general. Luigi is going to have a much harder time edgeguarding Doc than the other way around.

more on others later.

Hm... Is Luigi good against people besides Doc? I use him a bit, maybe 3rd or 4th most, and he's pretty good, imo. Then again, I don't have much competition here. :(

Doc's pills also stop Lui's tornado dead flat.

Hm. Well Roy isn't dead all the time (most of the time if the opponent is quick enough) but Marth is pretty much always dead. I thought Roy had less lag on his blazer's landing and I guess I was right.

<.< I forgot to mention though, Lui's air game rapes Doc's so bad...

I thought Doc has a good air-game.. Or is it mario's?

Luigi's air game is a lot better than Doc's, but it only matters if Doc is forced to fight him head on... pills and better mobility in general other stuff create a huge spacing advantage for Doc.

Yeah. But still, Lui's KOs on your if you are doc will more than likely be a sex kick. No jokes. Doc DOES have a good air game, its just a bad matchup against Lui's.

Yeah. But it only matters if Doc is forced to fight him head on... pills and better mobility in general other stuff create a huge spacing advantage for Doc. >__>

What I mean by this is that Doc can more or less even things out by not allowing Luigi to use his aerials except in extremely dumb situations... like when he's airborne and being barraged by pills, and Doc is following right behind with the fist of d3th. Luigi's air game actually kind of sucks unless he can get right in his opponent's face, which doesn't happen much in this match-up unless Doc doesn't know how to abuse the pills.

I've tried abusing pills, but I'm not good at it. You need to shffl or however you spell that, right?

Go a few topics down and read the Doc discussion [for help with pill use].

Oh I know that Lui has horrible approach, since I play a good Lui all the time with my Doc. But at some point you will both be in the air, and by that time its over. You trade hits? Lui gets an aerial off on you. Of course Doc still has the upper hand, but Lui's air game still utterly rapes Doc's.

Topics like this make me wonder if there are any mindgames/combos yet discovered. At first glance, I would have guessed Lui would be a solid character thanks to that Huge wavedash, but I guess too much of a wavedash is a weakness...