NFL - Discussion Thread

Size won't get him an NFL career. He will need to make the adjustment from college to the big time, and he needs to make sure he isn't slow as a result of his size.

If you're right, maybe we can still tank after all ;)

I remember seeing the college game film of Tony Mandarich and he was playing on a different level from everybody else, he was swatting defensive ends onto their backsides with ease. He even made it onto the cover of sports illustrated he was such a dominant player. Then he entered the pros and turned up at the Packer training camp looking considerably smaller, he was now obviously off the steroids and just an average blocker who got exposed big time in the pros.

I'm reserving judgement until I see this Epenesa in the pro ranks. How does he compare to Nick Bosa who went second in this years draft?

One website ranks Espenesa as a 5-star prospect, and with a score of 98.68%. Looking at his college season, to be honest he hasn't done that much. He makes nearly 3 tackles a game, but only about half of those were solo tackles. However, it's worth noting in the game where he had a season-high 8 tackles (5 solo), his team won 63-0.

On another note, Miami cut Luke Falk (one of the QBs on their roster). Sadly it means we'll be picking up another reject QB...

Or, perhaps Miami can finally listen to me, and take a certain backup QB from San Francisco...

Miami seems like a frustrating team to follow Matt, they haven't really done anything of note since the early 70's. I bet Dolphins fans still wished they had Marino, he was something special. For my money the best quarterback to ever play the game, he was just always on poor teams, hence no Super Bowl rings.

Looks like the Redskins like their rookie wide recievers, they've just dropped the number 22 pick in the 2016 draft Josh Doctson today. They didn't renegotiate his contract. The Redskins offense will look completely different in 2019. They've changed about 60% of the personnel.

I heard a rumour that Belichick wants to get Garoppolo back in New England. If that happens it would be like soccer and the Patriots just lent the player out to get some playing experince which he would not have got behind Brady.

« Last edited by Sanzano on May 3rd 2019 »

Matt: I saw a 2020 Mock Draft recently that had the Dolphins picking #2 and selecting Epenesa. The theory behind it is that Rosen is our future QB, but we do horrible this year because of all our other holes. It had Cincinnati picking #1 and selecting Tua. lol

Dennis - Good for Washington. They needed to get rid of their inconsistent, injury-prone WRs and draft some new ones. Everything they've done this offseason/draft has been excellent.

That's interesting about the rumour you say. Certainly NE would want him back one day, but I doubt San Francisco would let their franchise QB go unless they got a quality player + a top 10 draft pick. And I don't see NE having both, if any of those. In soccer you just throw $30 million at a club and they take it, but the salary cap in the NFL makes it tough.

Warrior - That's fair I guess. But it begs the question: why did we recruit Rosen to play behind a below average o-line in an awful team, if he just came from playing behind a below average o-line in an awful team?

« Last edited by Matt77 on May 3rd 2019 »

Rosen is a decent quarterback Matt, I've watched game film, in the right club he will flourish. Miami obviously believe this as well and are taking a chance on him. There is no question about the guy's talent, he's as good a young quarterback as anybody, the problem is the intangibles attached to him like why do team mates dislike him and do Miami really want to attach the franchise tag to an unpopular player?

This is where the media has tricked everyone, including me initially. Rosen's Arizona teammates including greats David Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald made extremely positive comments about Rosen. Especially when Rosen turned up to a baseball game that many of the Arizona players organised. The game was on a few days after Rosen got traded to Miami, but instead of leaving straight away, he stayed in Arizona and went to the game. Fitzgerald then said pretty notable stuff about Rosen.

Basically, he is not unpopular with his teammates. Maybe he was in college, but perhaps he has sorted his attitude out and grown up. But everything Rosen has said and done in these last few months has been true class.

I hope you're right Matt. It may be a case of what happened to Andy Murray the Tennis player who was initially very unpopular in England due to his comments about Scotland should leave the U.K. Murray's agent basically told him if he didn't sort his act out and become more popular it would cost him a lot of money in endorsements, after that Murray started talking more positively about England, even crying to get the British sympathy vote...pathetic really.

Do you know what the stories coming out of college about Rosen where about? I know it scared a lot of NFL teams off, at one time Rosen was the highest ranked of last years quarterback class and then his stock started to fall while Mayfield's rose.

I'll be keeping a close eye on Miami's pre season workouts to keep track of Rosen's progress. I hope he come's through, I used to love watching the Dolphins in the late mid to late 80's when they had Marino, Clayton, and Duper. That was a fun team to watch, they could score at any time through the air.

Hahahahaha. You should've seen the embarrassment at this year's Aus Open with Murray. He came out in tears just before it started and said his career was basically over and that it would be a miracle if he made it to Wimbledon. Then when he lost his 1st round match, they got him on for an on-court interview and the crowd kept cheering every 5 seconds, and then there was a huge video they played with players saying what a champion Murray was. But after all that, in the next few days he came out and said he was going to have surgery that could (would) save his career. And he did, and it was a success, meaning his career should continue and he may get back to his old playing form. Good old Sir Andy Murray...

Anyways, now that that's off my chest, no, I don't know about stories with Rosen. Probably just rumours being spread. I think something similar happened with Josh Allen after a few days before, he was linked with Cleveland as the #1 pick.

It will be interesting with Rosen. The Miami coach, and Rosen himself, have said that he has to earn the starting job, and that right now he is the backup. I think Miami want to see if Rosen's attitude issues are completely gone. It's a pretty low-risk investment, and if he is a flop, they can tank for Tua.

Murray: (6.25)
Strengths - Never seems to get rattled or overwhelmed. Showed ability to elevate his play in clutch situations. Plus runner and passer as true dual-threat quarterback. Twitchy ball-handler for instant delivery from RPO reads. Gets through progressions and won't fall in love with primary target. Above-verage release quickness from pocket. Lively arm to challenge safeties and attack tight windows. Throws catchable ball with good touch. Baseball outfielder with "long toss" deep-throw talent. Quick with smooth follow-through for easy 50-yard throws in rhythm. Effective and accurate when throwing on the move. Puts fatigued defenses in a serious bind. Uncommon ability to extend plays and make back-breaking throws. Most elusive pocket target rushers will ever see. Sacked just 18 times. Slips tackles and outruns defenders like a running back. Torments coordinators with zone-read runs and third-down conversions with legs.
Weaknesses - Just one season as full-time starter and leader of the team. Requires diversity-of-game experience for NFL chess matches. Had 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions before final season. Short with smallish frame. Concerns over durability due to size and playing style. Needs to implement more open-field slides when finishing runs. Could struggle to see and throw over defenders from the pocket. Defaults to low arm-angle throws unnecessarily. Will leave feet behind when scanning and throwing. Needs better eye discipline to avoid stare-down scenarios. Too willing to challenge into double coverage. Mechanical inconsistencies can cause throws to sail. Needs to prove he can throw on time to the middle of the field.

Haskins: (6.2)
Strengths - Groomed for this moment since he was young. Rare passing production. Has been mentored by NFL receiver Mohamed Sanu. Well-schooled with understanding of how to get himself protected. Will bet big to win big. Confident to take chances and complete game-changing throws. Shows potential to be a full-field reader on NFL level. Effortless throwing motion. Can uncork a plus fastball with just the flick of his wrist. Scans with ball tucked close and feet bouncing from target to target. Ball explodes out of his hands when driving it down the field. Has deep ball arm to wait out coverage and hit the fastest targets in stride. Alters trajectory depending on coverage and space. Willing to stand in and take the hit to deliver the ball. Able to deliver and complete throws from unconventional angles. Excellent sense of developing pressure from the edge. Pocket mobile to climb and slide into safe launch spots. Sturdy build to shake free of pocket traffic. Explosive, clutch production to finish final four games.
Weaknesses - Small list of successful QBs with so few career starts. Lacks in-game adversity challenges for an early round pick. Front side can fly open causing throws to sail. Unusual follow through leaving his lower half behind. Still learning to attack zone coverage. Baited into bad decisions on high-low reads. Doesn't show enough caution against dropping linebackers. Will need to improve anticipatory intermediate throws. Has to be willing to come off primary reads when coverage dictates it. Needs to expedite his process in the face of pressure. Needs better feel for when to throw with touch. Accuracy on the move is below average. Below-average athlete who can't run away from trouble. Sluggish, heavy feet when he scrambles. Fumbles due to carelessness and lack of concentration on snaps.

Rosen: (6.19)
Strengths - Tennis prodigy with impeccable footwork and delivery balance. Plays with excellent coordination between eyes and feet. Gets head around quickly on play-fakes. Has experience under center. Anchors in pocket and doesn't creep around needlessly. Trusts his protection and doesn't take eyes of targets when pressure mounts from the edge. Climbs pocket when appropriate. Willing to stand and deliver in face of pressure. Completed 63 percent of his passes when blitzed in 2017. Accuracy totals negatively impacted by 31 receiver drops this year. Holds his water in pocket. Mechanics are terrific. Rarely over-strides and throws with consistently bent front knee. Throwing motion and follow-through are effortless. Extremely confident and intelligent. Throws receivers open. Might be best back shoulder thrower in the game. Shows ability to speed up operation time for move to next level. Very good usage of shoulder fakes and hitches to move defenders or buy additional time for receivers to uncover. Touch passer who can throw feathers when needed.
Weaknesses - Durability is a concern. Carries slight build and has had injury issues dating back to high school. Carries ball low in pocket with slight upward pre-throw hitch. Too casual in pocket set-up. Decision making and post-snap reads are inconsistent. Refuses easy throws at times. Arm talent and strength are below average. May need to make greater effort to drive field and seam throws. Poor career deep ball completion rate. Excess air under ball allows challenges. Lacks gun to challenge safeties with rip throws over the top. Needs better anticipation. Poor mobility. Struggles to elude early pressure. Completed just 42.4 percent of his throws when forced to move. Too much hero ball. Extends plays and takes unnecessary chances rather than throwing it away. Scouts question his passion for football and whether he will be a willing student.

Lock: (5.98)
Strengths - Prototypical combination of size and arm talent. Full-field reader with ability to scan and process with good quickness. Pocket movements are sudden and twitchy. Exceptionally quick ball-handler with sudden release. Throws with anticipation. Fearless and confident to make challenging throws down the field. Fires ropes through constricted seams and in cover-2 buckets. Uses eyes to move safeties. Rarely lingers on primary targets, preventing defenders from getting early jumps. Decent deep ball touch and accuracy and gives his receivers a chance. Low sack total due to mobility and feel for edge pressure. Maintains field vision when he's on the move. Completion total hurt by excessive drops from top targets over last two years.
Weaknesses - Frustrating inconsistencies with accuracy and touch. Fires fastballs on easy, short throws when changeup is needed. Arm thrower with truncated follow-through. Leaves ball behind his targets on crossers and slants. Drops arm slot, leading to batted passes. Requires more disciplined footwork from the pocket. Production falls off a cliff when forced to move his feet. Inconsistent squaring to throw when on the move. Poise and decision-making appear tied to level of pressure he sees. Drifts back and away from the rush and forces himself into low-percentage throws. Lamb-killer with just 14 TDs and 7 INTS against SEC opponents in 2018. Confused and unsteady against Alabama and Georgia with multiple turnovers.

Jones: (5.81)
Strengths - Benefitted working under QB guru David Cutcliffe at Duke. Did more with less at skill positions. Quick worker through progressions. Early recognition of deep ball opportunities and feathers throws into the target. Adjusts pre-snap plan to blitz and exploits hot-read opportunities. Consistent footwork from pocket with feet following eyes. Outstanding accuracy on intermediate throws. Uses fastball when he needs it, but generally throws with touch. Drives field-side throws with velocity. Courage to hang in the pocket and throw despite impending blow. Completion percentage hurt by high drop rate. Displays feel for pressure off the edge. Good athlete with scrambling ability to move the chains. Slick pocket slider with ability to keep searching for target or flee for yardage.
Weaknesses - Thin in his lower body. Had 12 passes batted down at line of scrimmage in 2018. Benefitted from heavy play-action/RPO scheme. Incessant patting of the ball through progressions. Waits an extra step before cutting it loose too often. Average release speed slowed by small windup. Attempts throws into some impossible windows. Needs to work ahead of schedule more often on next level. Succumbs to off-platform tosses rather than working into better positioning. Showed willingness to throw it up for grabs rather than take sack. Loose ball handling in face of pressure leads to fumbles. Too much bravado as a runner. Took licks when slides or dashes out of bounds were options.

Matt: I guess our offensive line is a little better than Arizona's, especially since we drafted a few players to bolster ours and they did nothing really. lol

Where did you pull those rankings? I only ask because Rosen is clearly the best QB involved in the 2019 Draft, skills wise at least.

« Last edited by Warrior13 on May 7th 2019 »

Warrior - Phew. I'm not the only one who sees how stupid Arizona were in this draft.

Those scores were based on draft notes on the NFL website. I'm not sure exactly how a score is given, but I'd assume before the draft some scouts gave a score? I'm not too sure though. It happens every year with every prospect, since this time last season I copy and pasted the same notes/scores for Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, Allen, Jackson & Rudolph.

Oddly, if I follow those scores, QBs from the 1st and 2nd rounds in the last two drafts would rank: (top=best prospect)
Darnold 7.0
Murray 6.25
Haskins 6.2
Rosen 6.19
Mayfield 6.03
Allen 6.01
Lock 5.98
Jackson 5.95
Jones 5.81

Based on the draft notes, they're fair grades in terms of who was better than who. Of course the scores are harsh across the board though. What I do notice is that Jones is extremely mediocre. How on earth did NY Giants think he was worth the #6 pick? I mean, Lamar Jackson was ranked higher than him. When I looked back at Mason Rudolph's draft notes, Jones seems like a slight upgrade of him. Slight upgrade of a backup QB does not look good for NY Giants...

Dennis - You may need to worry. From reading this about Haskins, he may well be the biggest boom-or-bust prospect. "Accuracy on the move is below average. Below-average athlete who can't run away from trouble. Sluggish, heavy feet when he scrambles. Fumbles due to carelessness and lack of concentration on snaps."

Haskin's is in the pro's now Matt, he will be tutored and closely monitored by the coaches to get the best out of his ability. Oddly enough the experts said the same about Dan Marino when he came out of college and his inability of not being able to run away from trouble and he ended up being one of the best scrambling quarterbacks ever, even if it was by moving a couple of steps at the last instant to avoid the sack.

Talking about Dan Marino, I still find it unbelieveable that Pittsburgh didn't draft him in '83. Pittsburgh would have won at least three more Super Bowls with him leading the offense.

Miami aren't tanking, they now have one of the best young quarterbacks in the league. Arizona were fools to give up on him, all they did was give Rosen NFL game experience to prepare him for his next team who happens to be Miami who can see his his potential and did what was necessary during the offseason to improve their team to protect him which was something the Cardinals failed to do. I think Miami will be the winners in this scenario and even if they are not they didn't lose much.

Miami might still be tanking. It all really depends if Rosen stands out and we win more than four games. If he can do that, I think the Phins will have to keep him. If he doesn't, Tua will be ours.

Don't like the Howard extension by Miami. Way too much money. I get the guy has had production in a division with the Bills and Jets, but he doesn't deserve to be the highest paid DB in the league. He clearly isn't the best.

I've been singing Howard's praises for a while now. This is a good move. In terms of free agency, who is going to want to come to Miami? It's better that we use cap space to sign up a talented player long-term than to have the money sitting there. Clearly Miami see even more improvement in him. Still, he is a Pro Bowl player who had 7INTs in 12 games last season. He has been paid too much, but by doing this, Miami have shown faith in him.

What star power do we have on defense? The way I see it, only 2 players. Fitzpatrick and Howard. Maybe Wilkins, but he hasn't played a game yet. We could not afford to have Howard be tempted to leave one day.

He has constantly improved since being drafted in the 2nd round. 2016 saw 0INTs in 6 games. 2017 saw 4 INTs in 16. 2018 saw 7INTs in 12. The fact is, in a game Howard has a 58% chance to intercept the opposition QB. His last 2 games against Indy and Buffalo saw him make a combined 4INTs, but then injury ended his season.

Also, you mention the line "in a division with the Bills and Jets". Remember his game against New England 2 seasons ago?

« Last edited by Matt77 on May 11th 2019 »

I think we actually have an okay defense. Wilkins will be a stud. Alonso is okay. Howard is okay. Fitzpatrick will continue to improve. Charles Harris better improve. And Jones is a stud... As well as our best player on defense...

Howard has had production, but most of it was done against mediocre QB play. 2 ints against Josh Allen. 1 int against Darnold. 2 ints against Carr. Snooze.

Jones is without a doubt the best player on our defense. And if Wilkins and Fitzpatrick pan out, they will also be better players than Howard. It's great to reward a guy who has had a lot of picks, but he didn't deserve that much. I don't care if we have the cap space; he isn't worth it. The wise move would've been for him to play this last year of his rookie deal and pay him rookie money. If he still performed well and didn't get injured, then talk about an extension for about half of what they gave him.

« Last edited by Warrior13 on May 11th 2019 »

Yeah, I forgot about Reshad Jones.

But remember, Howard also had 2INTs against Luck, @ Indy. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet.

But do know, I agree with you that Howard has been paid too much. But I don't mind it, because we've locked down a good player long-term.

We have some good players, but as a defensive unit we play high-risk high-reward. By that, I mean the defense gives up a huge amount of yardage, but is very good at intercepting the opposition QB. We conceded 391 yards per game (ranked 28th), but intercepted the QB 21 times (ranked 2nd). If Brian Flores can bring in coaches who can fix up this yardage issue, then we will have a good defense.

Picking off Luck and Brady is nice, but sometimes you're just in the right place at the right time. I'm not trying to take away from Howard, but the unearthly amount of interceptions prove that some were more because of luck than pure skill.

Just way too much money. If it was about half of what it was, I would give it a slam dunk grade. He's a good player, just not the best DB in the land.

I hope Flores can boost our defense. Patricia did horrible last year with the Lions, and he was suppose to be a decent defensive guy from the Pats. Let's hope Flores breaks the trend of mediocre Patriots Coaches.

Worry not, Lonely Master. The trend in player salaries increasing means whichever CB is signed long-term next will earn more than Howard, and the one after will earn even more and so on.

I find is bizarre that most of the former NE coaches haven't done well. You'd expect a dynasty to produce quality coaches. In Australia 8/18 of the current head coaches came from the one club (which won the competition 3 times in a row). Funnily enough, from 2013-2015 the one team won it, and in 2016, 2017, and 2018, former assistants from that club won it at their new clubs as a head coach. Why can't NE do the same?

The hope is that Flores recognises this failure in previous NE coaches and avoids being a flop as well. Not that I'm that optimistic in his ability to bring us success. Last time I was optimistic was with Gase, and he went on to make several bonehead decisions.