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super craig Posted: 08:54 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1702785
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On 29-Jun-2007 BlackNinja said:"Alright, everyone here says the condom is not 100% reliable, which is true, but if you use it properly, it works 98% of the time. "

Which means that for every hundred people who use condoms, two unwanted babies are statistically likely to be produced.

Which leads to an interesting question: if a couple has been responsible and used condoms correctly, but the woman ends up pregnant anyway, do you think that she should be allowed an abortion then?
She should be allowed to have an abortion because they obviously didn't want the baby and took the correct methods to stop that from happening, its not their fault, bit of a stupid comparison but if a plane crashes because the engine fail then you don't blame the pilot.

« Last edited by super craig on Jun 30th 2007 »
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super craig Posted: 09:00 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1702797
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On 29-Jun-2007 Blazin Torchic said:Well, as what a lot of people said, if the mother has a baby she doesn't want, then but it up for adoption so it can find another loving family that will take care of it.

The sad thing is that, the baby won't know if it was adopted or not. The family will either tell it when it's older and it will be really unhappy, or that they will never tell it and it will never find out.
Adoption is good for the baby since it isn't killed but I think that the stress of going through everything will be greater than if she had an abortion, though it will still be a very stressful time.

I'm not sure if this issue has been raised or not but what happens if the mother wants an abortion but the father doesn't, should the woman be allowed to have an abortion?

« Last edited by super craig on Jun 30th 2007 »
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skyline specialist Posted: 09:23 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1702819
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On 30-Jun-2007 super craig said:She should be allowed to have an abortion because they obviously didn't want the baby and took the correct methods to stop that from happening, its not their fault, bit of a stupid comparison but if a plane crashes because the engine fail then you don't blame the pilot.
No I disagree.

Either way, abortion is still wrong for a girl as it damages her mental state badly and it still the guys fault.

« Last edited by skyline specialist on Jun 30th 2007 »


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Fwank Posted: 12:16 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703134
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On 30-Jun-2007 skyline specialist said:No I disagree.

Either way, abortion is still wrong for a girl as it damages her mental state badly and it still the guys fault.
Try to avoid vague posts that merely states an opinion without explanation next time, this is almost considered spam on D&D, so be more thoughtful next time you post.

As for the "guy's fault" argument: this is like saying only one of your hands is responsible for making a sound if you clapped your hands together. Needless to say that sounded pretty irrational. A couple is equally responsible for pregnancy, so it wouldn't be anyone's fault any more than their partner's, unless it was a rape.
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 12:34 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703190
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On 29-Jun-2007 Blazin Torchic said:Well, as what a lot of people said, if the mother has a baby she doesn't want, then but it up for adoption so it can find another loving family that will take care of it.

The sad thing is that, the baby won't know if it was adopted or not. The family will either tell it when it's older and it will be really unhappy, or that they will never tell it and it will never find out.
The main problem with the adoption argument is that, once the baby's actually born, maternal instincts really start to kick in, and, as super craig said, it can make giving up the baby a lot more stressful for the mother. Worse, she might decide she wants to keep it, even if the rational part of her knows she just can't support it, or she doesn't actually want a baby, which could result in the child not growing up in a loving environment.
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 12:36 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703199
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On 30-Jun-2007 super craig said:Adoption is good for the baby since it isn't killed but I think that the stress of going through everything will be greater than if she had an abortion, though it will still be a very stressful time.

I'm not sure if this issue has been raised or not but what happens if the mother wants an abortion but the father doesn't, should the woman be allowed to have an abortion?
I think, under most circumstances, the decision should be the mother's. (I can't actually think of any circumstances where this shouldn't be the case right now, but I'm sure they exist.)
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 12:38 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703212
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On 30-Jun-2007 skyline specialist said:No I disagree.

Either way, abortion is still wrong for a girl as it damages her mental state badly and it still the guys fault.
As Fwank said, don't make vague and/or dogmatic posts like that. Back up your opinions with arguments, and try not to make blankent statements. I also find it delightfully naïve of you that you think it's always the guy's fault.
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super craig Posted: 14:40 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703592
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On 30-Jun-2007 Shadow_Lord said:I think, under most circumstances, the decision should be the mother's. (I can't actually think of any circumstances where this shouldn't be the case right now, but I'm sure they exist.)
Same here, I think they both should have equal say but as far as I'm concerned it doesn't seem right to force the woman to have the pregnancy.

Did any of you hear of the case where a couple had some fertilised eggs frozen because the woman was undergoing chemotherapy and then most likely wouldn't be able to have kids. However the couple then split up and the woman then wanted to use the eggs but the man said he didn't, so it went to court and it was decided that the eggs should be destroyed.

This is a prime example of whether it is entirely the womans choice to have an abortion and what say the other party has in it. I'm not sure which side of the arguement to go for, since they both have valid points that I agree with.

« Last edited by super craig on Jun 30th 2007 »
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 16:06 Jun30 2007 Post ID: 1703828
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I heard about that. If the woman had been fertile, then I'd have said the man was in the right, but in this case, I think the woman was in the right, since this was basically her last chance short of a miracle to have children.
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Volke Posted: 07:49 Jul01 2007 Post ID: 1705690
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On 30-Jun-2007 super craig said:Adoption is good for the baby since it isn't killed but I think that the stress of going through everything will be greater than if she had an abortion, though it will still be a very stressful time.

I'm not sure if this issue has been raised or not but what happens if the mother wants an abortion but the father doesn't, should the woman be allowed to have an abortion?
If the father wants it, then the mother shouldn't have an abortion. It might not be the most comforting news in the world to the mother, but...you get the point.


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Fwank Posted: 07:58 Jul01 2007 Post ID: 1705696
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To be honest though, the mother's the one carrying the baby for 9 months.

Simply wanting it shouldn't be reason enough to prohibit the mother getting rid of the baby regardless of how she feels about the subject. The father would probably have to support the mother and the baby and their needs for it to be a reasonable claim... this doesn't take into consideration of the father's financial stability to be capable of supporting himself and a child... aww man then you get custody battles between mother and father since mother would probably suddenly want the child now that the 9 months of pregnancy has passed... so on so forth.
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super craig Posted: 14:19 Jul01 2007 Post ID: 1706748
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On 01-Jul-2007 Fwank said:To be honest though, the mother's the one carrying the baby for 9 months.

Simply wanting it shouldn't be reason enough to prohibit the mother getting rid of the baby regardless of how she feels about the subject. The father would probably have to support the mother and the baby and their needs for it to be a reasonable claim... this doesn't take into consideration of the father's financial stability to be capable of supporting himself and a child... aww man then you get custody battles between mother and father since mother would probably suddenly want the child now that the 9 months of pregnancy has passed... so on so forth.
But wouldn't that technically be the same as paying for the baby, a bit like adoption? It's a tricky situation and basically boils down to who's rights are more important, the woman's or the man's.
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Fwank Posted: 15:06 Jul01 2007 Post ID: 1706917
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I don't see how the man's rights can out weigh the woman's rights here; he doesn't have to do anything (physically) to carry the baby or have an abortion, any decision would have a greater impact on the female's life than the males.
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 18:52 Jul01 2007 Post ID: 1707676
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I agree with Fwank. Since the mother's the one most affected, she should, under most circumstances, have the final say.
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B_Moore127 Posted: 02:14 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1709013
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i think nobody has the right to tell when or where or how a women should have her baby
and if she wants to kill it let her she has to live with it not anybody else
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Fwank Posted: 05:04 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1709170
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Why doesn't anybody have the right to tell a women she should/shouldn't have her baby?

And try using proper grammar this time; this is D&D, not general chat.
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super craig Posted: 07:42 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1709289
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On 02-Jul-2007 B_Moore127 said:i think nobody has the right to tell when or where or how a women should have her baby
and if she wants to kill it let her she has to live with it not anybody else
What happens if having the baby poses serious risks to both the mother and the baby and there is a likely chance that they will die but the mother insists on having the baby anyway, should doctors be able to tell her to have an abortion as it is likely to save at least one life.
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Arsenal#1 Posted: 11:56 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1709913
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I've just remembered a case that recently took place in Ireland...
A woman (17, I think) was carring a child that would NOT survive outside the womb. She was not allowed to abort it. Is that fair? 9 months and a child that wouldn't live for more than a few hours. No.
She had to travel to England after weeks of the case going on, to get rid of the child in her womb, that wouldn't live outside it.
Thats another time when abortion is necessary.
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Shadow_Lord Posted: 13:04 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1710215
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On 02-Jul-2007 super craig said:What happens if having the baby poses serious risks to both the mother and the baby and there is a likely chance that they will die but the mother insists on having the baby anyway, should doctors be able to tell her to have an abortion as it is likely to save at least one life.
That's what I'd class as an exception. It's a bit cruel, but it there's a serious risk...
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super craig Posted: 13:30 Jul02 2007 Post ID: 1710333
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On 02-Jul-2007 Arsenal#1 said:I've just remembered a case that recently took place in Ireland...
A woman (17, I think) was carring a child that would NOT survive outside the womb. She was not allowed to abort it. Is that fair? 9 months and a child that wouldn't live for more than a few hours. No.
She had to travel to England after weeks of the case going on, to get rid of the child in her womb, that wouldn't live outside it.
Thats another time when abortion is necessary.
Why wasn't she allowed to abort? I thought so long as the baby was within the age range given for legal abortion she could have it done. Then again I'm no expert on Ireland's legal system.

Nevertheless you would have thought common sense would have prevailed and they would have let her have an abortion. Also from the sounds of it she wanted to have the abortion.

Shadow_Lord : I agree, its not nice but it is the lesser of 2 evils.

« Last edited by super craig on Jul 2nd 2007 »
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