Abortion

I have no idea...There was a vote on it a couple of years ago...I thought YES to abortion won...maybe its because she's not legally an adult...

On 19-Jun-2007 greenspider35 said:

Alright, this one here's a big one. So, what do you all think about it?

I personally think that people should make the decision to have an abortion if they really want one, and I'll tell you why. When they get the abortion, they are just killing some cells and it's not even a baby yet.

As for the people who are Christian and are not for abortion, it's just a bunch of cells and is not even a living and organic being yet. stop complaining about stuff that is even there.

You could take Christian out of that as not all Christians are against abortion. (I'm for it and Christian) Women don't always make the choice to have a baby and giving birth is painful (I am a male) when you have a baby you didn't want because it was illegal for you to not have it what will you think?

Alright.

Firstly, whoever said that (I forget who) said whoever is Christian and not for abortion. This suggests that he or she recognises that not all Christians are against abortion. Stop taking offence at things which aren't there.

Secondly, the second part of your post made little to no sense whatsoever. It could benefit from being divided into more sentences.

Make worthwile posts. See the rules thread. -deleted-

That was, it's my opinion, what was wrong with that post?

Look at the rules. They clearly state that all opinions have to be back up by arguments.

shadow lord, that was me who got quoted before. It was the first post, as in I started this whole ordeal.

anyway, I know I haven't been here for a while, but I was saying that it was just a bunch of cells before and it's not even a living thing yet.

Alright, so I made a mistake (thank you, whoever corrected me with that whole GREN thing, or whatever it was). I am now just gonna make thism opinion:

It is justabunch of cells and not even a human being. Yes, it is the beginning of life, but it is just not even fully grown yet.

As for those Christians who believe that abortion is wrong, stop complining. It is just a bunch of cells, not a fully grown baby yet (some people get confused and are scared and believe that the abortion happens towards the end, when that is not true at all), and you should really take into consideration that no, you don't know what Jesus is thinking and no, you don't know if it makes him sad. Also, some of you will say 'it goes against thou shalt not kill!'. Well, OK sure, it does kill something, but not a human being. Just some cells, and only that.

On 03-Jul-2007 Flareon Dude_ said:

shadow lord, that was me who got quoted before. It was the first post, as in I started this whole ordeal.

anyway, I know I haven't been here for a while, but I was saying that it was just a bunch of cells before and it's not even a living thing yet.

Alright, so I made a mistake (thank you, whoever corrected me with that whole GREN thing, or whatever it was). I am now just gonna make thism opinion:

It is justabunch of cells and not even a human being. Yes, it is the beginning of life, but it is just not even fully grown yet.

As for those Christians who believe that abortion is wrong, stop complining. It is just a bunch of cells, not a fully grown baby yet (some people get confused and are scared and believe that the abortion happens towards the end, when that is not true at all), and you should really take into consideration that no, you don't know what Jesus is thinking and no, you don't know if it makes him sad. Also, some of you will say 'it goes against thou shalt not kill!'. Well, OK sure, it does kill something, but not a human being. Just some cells, and only that.

I don't think its so much the fact that it requires the killing of cells but the fact they believe the cells have a soul and much of the religious views on abortion centre around when actually it is 'given' a soul, for example most Roman Catholics believe it is at the moment of conception whereas Liberal Protesants believe it is after 14 days so abortion is allowed before that.

Also what are peoples views on using embryos for Genetic Engineering? As I suppose that can be classed as a form of abortion but is done for different reasons.

hmm, very true on the first half.

as for the second one, never heard of it. could you explaon it a little bit, please?

On 03-Jul-2007 Flareon Dude_ said:

hmm, very true on the first half.

as for the second one, never heard of it. could you explaon it a little bit, please?

Ok will do. Well the way in which I mean basically it involves the use of embryos for things such as stem cells and other things that can be used to possible cure current incurable disease. However in order for it to work the embryos are killed, making it the same as abortion.

It also means stuff like placing a human gene into a bacteria but that isn't relevant.

« Last edited by super craig on Jul 3rd 2007 »

hmm. I can actually see that as being useful to the world, so I would say that it would be very helpful to those who suffer, and those who will suffer.

On 02-Jul-2007 Fwank said:

Why doesn't anybody have the right to tell a women she should/shouldn't have her baby?

And try using proper grammar this time; this is D&D, not general chat.

because what the **** gives them the right its hers not yours mine or nobody elses

and i was using proper grammer i didnt use shorthand text

What if she was just careless and wasn't practising safe sex? What gives her the right to decide the fate of a child she carelessly brought into the world?

Seriously, there are plenty of factors involved, I just didn't want people participating in D&D to be so straight forward judgmental without backing themselves up, and that's what you're technically doing.

Oh, capital letters and punctuation was what I was referring, and try using **** words less; it makes you look stupid.

*edit:

I think I've mentioned this already flare, but it's not the fact that it's merely a bunch of cells, it's more to do with the fact that if you don't abort the baby, it will become a life of its own, and aborting it will therefore be killing it, if we ignore the exception where the baby cannot survive after birth or what ever other reasons that makes abortion seem ethical.

I think the thought of being directly responsible for the death of something as sophisticated as a human being makes people scared; it's pretty common consensus (one I disagree with) that killing intelligent life is rather wrong (arguments involve sentience/awareness, pleasure/pain, stuff like that). Sure it's easy to say on the side lines that it's just a bunch of cells, but when you're put in the spotlight and must decide between stopping this thing from growing to become a human (which you know it will if you leave it alone), it's comparable to killing a human being, and when that mentality hits, it's safe to say you'd freak out even if you weren't religious.

« Last edited by Fwank on Jul 4th 2007 »

True, but surely by that argument using any form of contraception (before or after conception) would count as murder. I mean, think about it; even if you use condoms, you're still denying life to the child which would have been conceived had you not. Indeed, one could even argue that by that logic choosing not to have sex in the first place is murder. Yet somehow I don't see most people arguing against the use of birth control in general. In fact, you'd have to be pretty hardcore pro-life to do so.

Fair point, never thought of it like that.

But still if your were to remove those cells from the mother and didn't do anything to them they would have no chance of survival so as far as I am concerned you are not killing a human, however once it is able to survive then getting rid of it will be killing a human.

On 03-Jul-2007 B_Moore127 said:

because what the **** gives them the right its hers not yours mine or nobody elses

and i was using proper grammer i didnt use shorthand text

You evidenly don't know what grammar is... dear me, what do they teach you kids in English classes these days?

ON-TOPIC:

Personally, I think it counts as murder when consciousness begins. Of course, that raises the question of when exactly consciousness does begin. There's evidence to suggest that some things which happen to babies whilst in the womb can influence their personalities in later life (there's the whole 'Mozart makes babies smarter' thing, although that in itself has been proven to be BS). This would seem to indicate that consciousness does begin some time during this period.

« Last edited by Shadow_Lord on Jul 4th 2007 »

On 04-Jul-2007 Shadow_Lord said:

True, but surely by that argument using any form of contraception (before or after conception) would count as murder. I mean, think about it; even if you use condoms, you're still denying life to the child which would have been conceived had you not. Indeed, one could even argue that by that logic choosing not to have sex in the first place is murder. Yet somehow I don't see most people arguing against the use of birth control in general. In fact, you'd have to be pretty hardcore pro-life to do so.

Some people do in fact protest any sexual practices which don't result in reproduction (sodomy, or sex with some form of contraception), for the very reasons that you stated in your post. Considerably fewer people than those who oppose abortion, admittedly, but they do still exist.

It's a pretty bad argument though: if we're discussing potential life, then a single sperm has the potential to become a human upon fusing with an ovum. Seeing as the average male produces thousands of sperms every day, he's going to end up destroying thousands of potential lives, whether he chooses to or not (Indeed, in the actual process of fertilisation, thousands of sperms are destroyed, as only one can actually fuse with the ovum and create a complete cell).

Well, precisely. But by the logic of destroying potential life counting as murder, every man murders thousands of people a month.

I'm editing SimoneInc's original post to make it a little easier to read (only spaced it out in paragraphs).

The post is great Simone, I just didn't have anything new to add at this point, and posting just to ask someone to edit a post seems kind of stupid right now, hope you don't hold it against me for deleting the original, otherwise I apologize =(

Again, keep in mind this is an original post by SimoneInc:

- First off, Christians are far from the only religious group that if focused against abortion.

- Secondly, it doesn't matter which religion you are of really, a person's decision, is a person's decision, even though someone belongs to a cult, their wants, are their wants, because only them and their doctor will know of it.

- Third off, I would completely understand if someone who was raped would want to have an abortion, I mean, if I were, I would just hate to know that a symbol of hat horrible say was lurking around somewhere. I would want to just finish it.

Even on an everyday basis, say a girl and a guy (consensually)had sex, and she somehow got pregnant and she wanted an abortion, then sure, she should be allowed, it's her life, and it's but a fetus, it's living off her, and she should have the right to decide if she wants to put a halt to her life for something that she didn't even plan on.

I do agree that she was irresponsible, but her choice is her choice.

- My friend's sister got pregnant, she was still in highschool, near the end of twelfth grade, and woah, she finished her last year of highschool, but that was just a huge block in her life, she didn't go to University as she had planned, because the child was such a handful.

She wanted an abortion, but her parents found out (and being hardcore Catholics) they were so against the idea of an abortion they made the daughter get married to a guy of their choice (arranged marriage). The husband doesn't want her to go back and study, she's miserable as heck, because she was so ambitious, but this just screwed her over. It's not that he's mean to her or anything but he just wants her to you know, cook clean and sleep.

So all in all, if their heads properly on their shoulder, and they've thought it out thoroughly, then by all means, whatever they want.

*edit: made it more obvious where credit is due

*edit 2: I'm an idiot, I do have something to add after all:

Guys sperm doesn't grow into a human being on its own; you need to get one to fertilize an egg. This is like saying unfertilized eggs are potential living beings where as they are, in fact, one massive cell.

« Last edited by Fwank on Jul 4th 2007 »

It's the couple's choice....and you guys are saying if its rape it should be allowed but I'm just saying what if she wants to have the baby? I mean its not likely but it's possible.

Why are you against abortion? If people don't want the baby why can't they have it their way? So what if they don't want to have safe sex? IT IS THEIR CHOICE! Seriously you guys, people can have abortions if they want to. The baby isn't even born! So what if it's alive? Plants are alive, and do we care about killing plants? NO! (well people do, just not as much as they care about people....we're selfish.)