Abortion

He's against abortion because he says he's religious, and that's it.

And his post is missing because I've deleted it for being pointless. Unless he's going to tell us what he thinks rather than what the book tells him he should think, I'm not going to let him post stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion; everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but if they're not going to tell us why, I'm not going to keep it here either.

Last warning everybody, this is D&D, get serious.

Back on topic:

Plants as living beings argument - now we step into the realm of consciousness; people argue plants are not aware of themselves, nor are they capable of experiencing pain or pleasure (there are some who argue the two are inter-related; only sentient beings are capable of experiencing pleasure or pain, but that's debatable) living non-sentient beings merely carry out basic biological functions. This argument is used by people to justify "killing" living beings such as plants or lesser animals such as insects.

It's important to realize that a great number of people do in fact acknowledge that they are "ending lives" when they kill plants or what not, but they see it as a necessity in order to survive, and readily assume everybody would agree, since there isn't much of an alternative to survive otherwise.

There's also the much simpler argument where people simply argue it's wrong to kill something with a brain... but... yeah... that's all there is to it, it's the same argument about consciousness as above.

In terms of abortion though: If we're considering the argument of consciousness, then it's logical to assume it'd be OK to abort a baby before it develops into a fetus, since it wouldn't even be any more aware of itself than a plant, but that period tends to be pretty brief.

On 04-Jul-2007 Fwank said:

I'm editing SimoneInc's original post to make it a little easier to read (only spaced it out in paragraphs).

The post is great Simone, I just didn't have anything new to add at this point, and posting just to ask someone to edit a post seems kind of stupid right now, hope you don't hold it against me for deleting the original, otherwise I apologize =(

Again, keep in mind this is an original post by SimoneInc:

- First off, Christians are far from the only religious group that if focused against abortion.

- Secondly, it doesn't matter which religion you are of really, a person's decision, is a person's decision, even though someone belongs to a cult, their wants, are their wants, because only them and their doctor will know of it.

- Third off, I would completely understand if someone who was raped would want to have an abortion, I mean, if I were, I would just hate to know that a symbol of hat horrible say was lurking around somewhere. I would want to just finish it.

Even on an everyday basis, say a girl and a guy (consensually)had sex, and she somehow got pregnant and she wanted an abortion, then sure, she should be allowed, it's her life, and it's but a fetus, it's living off her, and she should have the right to decide if she wants to put a halt to her life for something that she didn't even plan on.

I do agree that she was irresponsible, but her choice is her choice.

- My friend's sister got pregnant, she was still in highschool, near the end of twelfth grade, and woah, she finished her last year of highschool, but that was just a huge block in her life, she didn't go to University as she had planned, because the child was such a handful.

She wanted an abortion, but her parents found out (and being hardcore Catholics) they were so against the idea of an abortion they made the daughter get married to a guy of their choice (arranged marriage). The husband doesn't want her to go back and study, she's miserable as heck, because she was so ambitious, but this just screwed her over. It's not that he's mean to her or anything but he just wants her to you know, cook clean and sleep.

So all in all, if their heads properly on their shoulder, and they've thought it out thoroughly, then by all means, whatever they want.

*edit: made it more obvious where credit is due

*edit 2: I'm an idiot, I do have something to add after all:

Guys sperm doesn't grow into a human being on its own; you need to get one to fertilize an egg. This is like saying unfertilized eggs are potential living beings where as they are, in fact, one massive cell.

I agree with pretty much all of that. Whoa about the story. Seriously, if I was that girl, I'd tell my parents "Screw you!", divorce the guy, and just get on with my life. Better yet, and I'd have said "Screw you!" in the first place, never have gotten married until I wanted to, and gone ahead with the abortion anyway.

On 05-Jul-2007 Shadow_Lord said:

I agree with pretty much all of that. Whoa about the story. Seriously, if I was that girl, I'd tell my parents "Screw you!", divorce the guy, and just get on with my life. Better yet, and I'd have said "Screw you!" in the first place, never have gotten married until I wanted to, and gone ahead with the abortion anyway.

Thats easy enough to say and I don't doubt that some people would but (and I'm generalising here) if her parents were hardcore Christians then chances are they will have a fair amount of say in what she does and so I doubt it would be that easy.

I don't have a clue what age you are in 12th grade but I'll assume its fairly young, then parents will have an even bigger say, and I guess that in a lot of the cases of underage pregnancys that are aborted the parents will have influenced it in some way.

12th Grade is about 17/18, I believe. So not that young.

Well if the parents actually supported her by helping her raise her child maybe they would've been able to retain both the child and their daughter's love. (just assuming here, I mean I'd totally stop liking my parents if they told me to give birth to a baby that could ruin my entire... huh wait...)

It's an entirely different issue for teenagers I guess. they'd have different rights than they would as adults. The call here is whether or not teenagers should even be allowed to decide whether they want to (or are capable of) carry/give birth/raise a baby... and every bloody case is different.

I'm so glad I'm a guy, all we ever have to endure is the occasional kick in the groin, and a couple of unwanted public erections here and there if your mind's out of focus...

On 05-Jul-2007 Fwank said:

Well if the parents actually supported her by helping her raise her child maybe they would've been able to retain both the child and their daughter's love. (just assuming here, I mean I'd totally stop liking my parents if they told me to give birth to a baby that could ruin my entire... huh wait...)

It's an entirely different issue for teenagers I guess. they'd have different rights than they would as adults. The call here is whether or not teenagers should even be allowed to decide whether they want to (or are capable of) carry/give birth/raise a baby... and every bloody case is different.

I'm so glad I'm a guy, all we ever have to endure is the occasional kick in the groin, and a couple of unwanted public erections here and there if your mind's out of focus...

Indeed all you ever hear about teen pregnancys is that they can't cope, the father doesn't want to know that sort of thing and in many cases I guess it is probably best to have an abortion, but I'm sure there are a good number of teenagers who would be able to stick together and deal with it, who's to say they wouldn't provide a life for the kid thats better than anyone else.

On 05-Jul-2007 Fwank said:

Well if the parents actually supported her by helping her raise her child maybe they would've been able to retain both the child and their daughter's love. (just assuming here, I mean I'd totally stop liking my parents if they told me to give birth to a baby that could ruin my entire... huh wait...)

It's an entirely different issue for teenagers I guess. they'd have different rights than they would as adults. The call here is whether or not teenagers should even be allowed to decide whether they want to (or are capable of) carry/give birth/raise a baby... and every bloody case is different.

I'm so glad I'm a guy, all we ever have to endure is the occasional kick in the groin, and a couple of unwanted public erections here and there if your mind's out of focus...

As you say, the problem with making an absolute decision is that every case is different. However, I stand by my view that, in most cases, it should be the mother who gets the final decision. Still, that said, if the mother's acting irresponsibly, then she maybe shouldn't be allowed to keep the baby. Whether or not she's acting irresponsibly should be down to the judgement of social workers. But even in this case, I'd probably favour adoption rather than abortion. It's a completed issue, but that's my view.

On 04-Jul-2007 Shadow_Lord said:

True, but surely by that argument using any form of contraception (before or after conception) would count as murder. I mean, think about it; even if you use condoms, you're still denying life to the child which would have been conceived had you not. Indeed, one could even argue that by that logic choosing not to have sex in the first place is murder. Yet somehow I don't see most people arguing against the use of birth control in general. In fact, you'd have to be pretty hardcore pro-life to do so.

well, it's not really murder at all. for something to be considered murder, it would have to be a fully grown human being. I mean, you can't kill something hat isn't even alive. and besides, cells die on a daily basis, so it would be a natua process, as opposed to murder, murder being a crime of ending a life prematurely and by force. true, that would sort-of count as contraception, but murder would still be ending a life that has already begun.

Well, exactly. I'm just saying that, following that logic, contraception would be considered murder.

no, actually i was saying basically the opposite of that. since nothing is even alive yet during intercourse, it's not really murder at all. and yes, i know you'll just say 'but what about the cells? they die?' yea well, close, but no cigar. murdr is technically the act of prematurely ending a life. if it's not even a living, breathing, human thing, so it's not even murder.

It doesn't have to be murder for people to have a break down over it, some people wouldn't even hurt a butterfly, let alone being able to live with the fact that they stopped a child from being born.

I know this whole "it's just a bunch of cells" thing is a fresh and interesting point to stand by, but you have to realize that no one argues against it, they merely say it's the fact that it will become a human being if you don't abort it that bothers them.

Cells get worn out and die, true. Cells die on a daily basis, also true. To abort a baby is second nature to cells dying? By your definition of murder, abortion fits the description perfectly: "ending a life prematurely and by force".

And I don't think you've read my previous posts if you're still trying to argue this view point @_@...

actually, I have read them. it's just that i have an easy memory loss....

anyway, yes, I am still trying to argue my viewpoint of it just being a bunch of cells, but I am also trying to argue that contraception is NOT murder. I said that murder is prematurely ending a human life, not a cell's life.

On 04-Jul-2007 Fwank said:

What if she was just careless and wasn't practising safe sex? What gives her the right to decide the fate of a child she carelessly brought into the world?

Seriously, there are plenty of factors involved, I just didn't want people participating in D&D to be so straight forward judgmental without backing themselves up, and that's what you're technically doing.

Oh, capital letters and punctuation was what I was referring, and try using **** words less; it makes you look stupid.

*edit:

I think I've mentioned this already flare, but it's not the fact that it's merely a bunch of cells, it's more to do with the fact that if you don't abort the baby, it will become a life of its own, and aborting it will therefore be killing it, if we ignore the exception where the baby cannot survive after birth or what ever other reasons that makes abortion seem ethical.

I think the thought of being directly responsible for the death of something as sophisticated as a human being makes people scared; it's pretty common consensus (one I disagree with) that killing intelligent life is rather wrong (arguments involve sentience/awareness, pleasure/pain, stuff like that). Sure it's easy to say on the side lines that it's just a bunch of cells, but when you're put in the spotlight and must decide between stopping this thing from growing to become a human (which you know it will if you leave it alone), it's comparable to killing a human being, and when that mentality hits, it's safe to say you'd freak out even if you weren't religious.

considering the first half of your edit-

well, you can't kill what's not yet alive. and true, an abortion would prevent a life, but that's the thing. since you are preventing a life, the life will never happen. therefore, you don't end a life prematurely (murder), you just prevent it.

On 08-Jul-2007 Flareon Dude_ said:

no, actually i was saying basically the opposite of that. since nothing is even alive yet during intercourse, it's not really murder at all. and yes, i know you'll just say 'but what about the cells? they die?' yea well, close, but no cigar. murdr is technically the act of prematurely ending a life. if it's not even a living, breathing, human thing, so it's not even murder.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. Do you even understand what I'm saying?

nope. maybe just reword that one post, cause i thougt you were saying that contraception was murder

I'm not. I'm just saying that by the logic I was describing, it is. I never said I agreed with that logic.

oooh. ok. still a little confused, but i think i know your stand, now. thank you

i agree,it's a womans choice and a very painful decison for not only the woman involed but for the family too.adoption is wonderful option but do u know how hard it is to carry a baby for 9 months and have to hand it over to someone else? it's heartbreaking.i went through the abortion process myself and i'll never forget the emotional bond,painful as it is.it does change you,it will always effect you,even in day to day activities.my message is this,think long and hard inside of yourself to find the right way for you

So why did you decide to get an abortion?

Fwank, that's just rude. that was just one of those things that's on the Unwritten List of Things Not to Ask Women Because They'll Get ****** Off At You, dude.