Match-up Analysis: Fox vs. Mr. Game and Watch

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Fox vs. G&W match-up. This means 1v1 on one of the neutral stages with a timed stock match and no items. This is NOT a comparison of Fox's overall strengths and weaknesses to GW's overall strengths and weakness, because in that department, there's no comparison. Fox is obviously the better character, but how does Game and Watch fare in this particular match-up?

Considering that they're on opposite ends of the tier spectrum, you may be surprised when I say the match-up is very close to being even.

One of the most important things to remember about this match-up is that where in most other match-ups, Fox is incredible in the combo department; but it's not the case here. Fox doesn't have that many combos on GW, whereas GW has a completely inescapable up throw chain on Fox that lasts for quite a while, and when he hits around 50-60%, he can just hop and parachute or switch to down throw and follow that up with the torch. Grabs aside, there are also a bunch of freehand juggles involving GW's down tilt (manhole) and up tilt (flag), all of which can also lead into the rest of his finishers (parachute, forward aerial, and torch, for the most part).

In any case, if GW ever gets a chance to start a combo (not as incredibly rare as one may think; GW actually quite fast with efficient use of his wavedash), Fox is pretty much screwed; if he's hit by the torch or the parachute at around 50-60%, he's bound to go offstage. If he doesn't die right off the bat, he's going to get edgeguarded; Fox's recovery is utter crap, and GW is an excellent edgeguarder.

There are a few reasons that Fox can't combo GW well. The most obvious problem is that the shine knocks GW over, instead of sliding him across the floor. Waveshine (shine, jump cancel into wavedash) combos automatically don't work anymore. Against GW, most of Fox's combos are just two-hit chains (jab-usmash, utilt-bair, fair-usmash, etc.) or freehand juggles, and they don't work as well as they do in other match-ups. Fox is known for juggling with his deadly up aerial, but in this match-up, up aerial spam won't work. Fox simply can't get through GW's key with the flip kick. Once GW is launched into the air, Fox has to pick a side and use back aerial, and even then, GW might be able to trade hits with the turtle or the forward aerial.

Fox has trouble edgeguarding GW as well; GW's vertical recovery is insane - he can sweetspot the ledge from the magnifying glass on FD with just his third jump - and being a character with average falling speed, he can just fall towards the stage to gain horizontal distance.

However, Fox is far from being completely defenseless. Fox has a really nice defensive game going for him, especially when it comes to shield counters. GW attacks lag quite a bit - a few of his aerials can't even be l-cancelled. By blocking GW's attacks and wavedashing from the shield, Fox can use his entire ground arsenal for shield counters. Waveshielding (wavedashing into shield -_-) is great - say that GW is jumping in with fair. When using fair, GW generally has to connect right before he lands to prevent being shield-grabbed - but if Fox wds in and puts up the shield right as GW starts f-aerial, he has effectively screwed up GW's spacing. F-aerial has a decent amount of lag even when fastfalled and cancelled; Fox pretty much gets a free up smash from the shield. Or, say, if Fox blocks the turtle, he can wd from shield into a jab, and then usmash as follow-up. Or if GW approaches from behind, Fox can short hop into b-aerial from shield. Point is that Fox's shielding game is good, and GW doesn't cope with shields very well.

Fox, on the other hand, is extremely good at penetrating defenses, and GW's defensive game is extremely lacking - not a good combination for GW. For the most part, GW's only shield option is the shield grab, and that's null and void in this match-up thanks to the shine. GW's sidestep and his roll are really bad as well; dodging out of Fox's shield pressuring game is fairly risky even for characters with good, fast dodges. GW's sidestep and rolls are among the slowest in the game. So say Fox jumps in with drill kick; he gets blocked. So he shines. GW can't do anything. At this point, Fox can jump-cancel the shine and drill kick again... then shine again, and repeat until GW's shield is too small. Or he could jump-cancel the shine directly into a grab or usmash. Or he could waveshine through GW, waveshine again, jab, utilt a few times... you get the idea. In any case, GW isn't going to be able to escape the shield abuse unless he sidesteps or rolls, and with his crappy dodges, he's pretty much guaranteed to get punished for trying. But his shield is also extremely small. If he continues to try and block all of Fox's attacks, it'll soon shrink too much to protect him, and he'll get hit anyway.

GW's only evasive option is his wavedash, and although it's fast, it's not going to be a great help when defending against Fox. GW essentially has to wd back and hope that Fox accidentally flies into whatever counterattack he has in mind (chair, manhole, sometimes torch...)

And then there's SHB spam. Fox is a better camper. I don't think there are too many questions here.

Fox also gets easy Star KOs on GW; usmash kills at around 85%.

So basically, Fox can't afford to make any mistakes. He can't afford to get grabbed, down tilted, or otherwise launched, and he certainly can't afford to get hit by fsmash or the parachute. GW, however, leaves a lot more holes in his game than Fox does. The match-up is basically like this: a good Fox leaves very few openings, but GW only needs exploit one of them to take off a stock. GW's game is chock-full of holes, but Fox needs to deal damage in smaller chunks before he can go for the kill.

Overall, I'd say Fox still has a slight advantage, but GW can do extremely well despite the fact that the match-up is a top tier vs. a bottom tier character. And good Fox players are hard to come by anyway, which makes it that much easier for GW :E

That's it. Leave your thoughts.

I wish you would try and make your indications of certain attacks more clear. 'Fair' stands for 'forward aerial attack', but most anyone would think you meant the word 'fair'. And what does 'wds' mean? You really need to clarify alot of things.

wd = Wavedashing. Its pretty easy to spot the terms once you use them. But yeah Helsing, you might wanna edit it to be a bit more 'newbie' friendly term wise.

What is a waveshine? What is a wavedash?

:/ Most of it is in the newbie FAQ, but I'll try my best.

Okay, I saw it, I get it now.

Yeah, sorry. I'm used to using terminology like that all over the place, and if you go onto any competitive Smash forum like GameFAQs or smashboards.com, it's the same set of jargon. Either way, if you plan on getting good at Smash, it'd do you good to learn some of the terminology anyway.

On 17-Jun-2005 dizzy fuweiru said:

Yeah, sorry. I'm used to using terminology like that all over the place, and if you go onto any competitive Smash forum like GameFAQs or smashboards.com, it's the same set of jargon. Either way, if you plan on getting good at Smash, it'd do you good to learn some of the terminology anyway.

Good at Smash? By that what do you mean? Skill at the game? I can wipe out 3 level 5 opponents all on a team against me without items, or a level 9 opponent with a handicap 9 with my handicap as 3. Or did you mean something else?

This is an interestingly random-seeming matchup. I wonder if I have a vid of this matchup, just to throw out there, since I don't really know a great deal about G&W...

Ah. MoFo/DireVulcan. Not a bad match. Here's the link, I yousendit'd it because I have nothing better to contriute to this topic:

http://s51.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=17EQWDIEK3P2I286AFET26TFS3

EDIT: Darkboarder, he means skill against real good human competition, which is nothing like fighting computers. Tourney skill.

On 17-Jun-2005 TobiasXelKythe said:

This is an interestingly random-seeming matchup. I wonder if I have a vid of this matchup, just to throw out there, since I don't really know a great deal about G&W...

Ah. MoFo/DireVulcan. Not a bad match. Here's the link, I yousendit'd it because I have nothing better to contriute to this topic:

http://s51.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=17EQWDIEK3P2I286AFET26TFS3

EDIT: Darkboarder, he means skill against real good human competition, which is nothing like fighting computers. Tourney skill.

I fought against other humans in a tournament and scored 2nd place. That's really damn good given that it was a four-way match every battle. And I always prevailed in the end in every one of them until the final one.

This is going to sound mean, but you're really just saying things that more or less prove that you're not exceedingly awesome at the game. But hey, "good" is subjective.

When we say "tourneys," we're talking about national and international events in which players from all over the world compete with one another. Being able to defeat 3 level 5 CPUs doesn't mean anything. Actually, defeating CPUs (regardless of level/handicap/character/number teamed against you/etc.) doesn't mean anything at all. The only way to get better at the game is to seek out human competition - not just within your circle of friends, but competitive players from as many different places as possible. Generally speaking, the only chance to do this is at large tournaments. Go figure.

Which reminds me, Tobias, we need to talk about an upcoming one on the 28th.

does ANYONE have anything to say about the match-up? <.<

Mostly everyone agrees with what you posted or its way out of their league.

go to FC3 dark boarder

money match, 10 dollars.

south bend indiana =)

damn.

=/ i'd like your opinion on GW vs. Ganon if you don't mind, just post it in this topic also if you wish

lets not forget how the frying pan ownz recovering fast fallers =)

:/ I don't know the match-up that well, to be honest, but I might try to write something up later.