Homosexuality Debates

The love is unnatural in the first place Craig.

Just because it isn't the majority sexuality doesn't make it unnatural. If that isn't why you think that, then why is it unnatural.

If you've read earlier post, homosexuality was never meant to exists. Period.

Henceforth, it makes it unnatural.

On 22-Jul-2009 Craizen said:

If you've read earlier post, homosexuality was never meant to exists. Period.

Henceforth, it makes it unnatural.

So death is also unantural then as god didn't orginally create us to die? While we are at it neither is Nylon yet I don't think there are many churches calling for it to be destroyed, I could be wrong though. Again I raise the point that they are animals that engage in homosexual activitys, now unless I missed the part of the bible where the dog ate from the tree in order to become god and created sin there should be no difference between animals then and now therefore it is natural.

Equally I raise again the point that if something happened that god didn't intend then either god isn't all knowing or just isn't perfect himself.

After all in stands to reason that if god knows everything, god created Satan in the first place knowing exactly what would happen so knew that homosexuality would come about and since he didn't stop it we can either say that he wasn't powerful enough to stop it or he intended for it to happen.


« Last edited by super craig on Jul 22nd 2009 »

On 22-Jul-2009 super craig said:

So death is also unantural then as god didn't orginally create us to die? While we are at it neither is Nylon yet I don't think there are many churches calling for it to be destroyed, I could be wrong though. Again I raise the point that they are animals that engage in homosexual activitys, now unless I missed the part of the bible where the dog ate from the tree in order to become god and created sin there should be no difference between animals then and now therefore it is natural.

Equally I raise again the point that if something happened that god didn't intend then either god isn't all knowing or just isn't perfect himself.

After all in stands to reason that if god knows everything, god created Satan in the first place knowing exactly what would happen so knew that homosexuality would come about and since he didn't stop it we can either say that he wasn't powerful enough to stop it or he intended for it to happen.

SuperCraig, that almost made me sick.

You say God, an all loving God, Purposely created an a son that would sin and want his position, creating the horrible world where people starve to death, kill each other over "turf", have sex and/or rape little kids to create homosexuality so it wouldn't go back to him. People die of starvation because they don't have the food, even there is plenty enough to go around. They don't have clean water. People are kidnapped for war and money. Greed controls people to a point of no return. They aren't happy. You think God wanted this? That just makes me sick that you would say that.

Thing is, he is all knowing God, however, He doesn't control or thoughts. We can change on a whim.


Nylon is made by man, homosexuality was created out of sin.

There is a difference.

If he was all knowing and all loving as you say he is, he would fix it. Also, you didn't share your thoughts on the animal point he brought up.

Wappa, I have something that will shut yourself up, if you insult one of our staff members again. Its called a 'Week Ban' If you don't understand what rules are, I strongly advise you to look in to them. If not, let me give you the definition of what 'rules' are.

rule ? noun
1. a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement, etc.: the rules of chess.

These are here for a reason and are located in the pinned section of this forum, and each other active forum has their own respective rules threads. I strongly advise you to read over them, because you've posted nothing of value to the thread, spammed a youtube video and insulted our staff member. I won't list more because its a waste of my time. If you break our rules again, I'll ban you for a week. Got it?

On 22-Jul-2009 Craizen said:

SuperCraig, that almost made me sick.

You say God, an all loving God, Purposely created an a son that would sin and want his position, creating the horrible world where people starve to death, kill each other over "turf", have sex and/or rape little kids to create homosexuality so it wouldn't go back to him. People die of starvation because they don't have the food, even there is plenty enough to go around. They don't have clean water. People are kidnapped for war and money. Greed controls people to a point of no return. They aren't happy. You think God wanted this? That just makes me sick that you would say that.

Thing is, he is all knowing God, however, He doesn't control or thoughts. We can change on a whim.


Nylon is made by man, homosexuality was created out of sin.

There is a difference.

Regardless of whether or not he can control our thoughts he should still be able to know everything that we were going to do (though if he was all powerful don't know why he couldn't control our thoughts). He must have known what would happen.

Also I don't see why technically it would be impossible for god to, not necessarily want but allow all of those horrible things, remember god is probably the greatest killer we've ever known thanks to the flood (assuming you believe there was a flood) in order to do his best to recreate a perfect world. If he would kill virtually everything and everyone alive what else could he do? This act in itself doesn't seem particularly loving to me.

As CyberneticMooninite mentioned still waiting for the animal point.

Finally I do appologise if what I said somehow made you feel sick, that certainly wasn't the intention but what I said still stands as a valid point.

On 21-Jul-2009 super craig said:

Isn't that easy enough to say if it was a choice, its not like committing adultery or murder. You are not born a murderer or rapist for example but people are born homosexual, regardless of what any religious book says you can't ignore the fact that a vast majority of homosexuals say they were born that way and that carries more weight coming from the actual people who are that and know themselves better than any book ever will. Denying that love then is surely the most unnatural thing.

I'll quote this post before reading, because this is the most significant.


You're right, it's an emotion. Can't be handled.


Wrong.

While, it's an emotion, be natural or unnatural, it is possible to CONTROL what you do. Just because you are born with gay feelings does by NO MEANS give a single excuse that you should sleep with or marry another male. That's where you should have enough control over yourself to keep away.

Even for straight people, just because you naturally lust over somebody doesn't give you an excuse to sleep with them. Or marry them. This false "excuse" is what's raised the divorce rates so high in the last years.

On 22-Jul-2009 super craig said:

So death is also unantural then as god didn't orginally create us to die? While we are at it neither is Nylon yet I don't think there are many churches calling for it to be destroyed, I could be wrong though. Again I raise the point that they are animals that engage in homosexual activitys, now unless I missed the part of the bible where the dog ate from the tree in order to become god and created sin there should be no difference between animals then and now therefore it is natural.

Equally I raise again the point that if something happened that god didn't intend then either god isn't all knowing or just isn't perfect himself.

After all in stands to reason that if god knows everything, god created Satan in the first place knowing exactly what would happen so knew that homosexuality would come about and since he didn't stop it we can either say that he wasn't powerful enough to stop it or he intended for it to happen.

God gave free choice.

On 23-Jul-2009 tbug2007 said:

God gave free choice.

If that truely was the case then why are we debating? People have the god given right to choose what they want so as I was saying to Craizen god therefore gave us the 'ability' to be homosexual, if he truely didn't like it then why didn't he just stop us in the first place?

On 23-Jul-2009 super craig said:

Regardless of whether or not he can control our thoughts he should still be able to know everything that we were going to do (though if he was all powerful don't know why he couldn't control our thoughts). He must have known what would happen.

Also I don't see why technically it would be impossible for god to, not necessarily want but allow all of those horrible things, remember god is probably the greatest killer we've ever known thanks to the flood (assuming you believe there was a flood) in order to do his best to recreate a perfect world. If he would kill virtually everything and everyone alive what else could he do? This act in itself doesn't seem particularly loving to me.

As CyberneticMooninite mentioned still waiting for the animal point.

Finally I do appologise if what I said somehow made you feel sick, that certainly wasn't the intention but what I said still stands as a valid point.

Just because animals do it doesn't make it natural. It makes no logical sense why anything would evolve to have some members of the species to be homosexual and others not. It is a genetic fluke that occurs in a few members of the species like many hereditary diseases (I'm not saying homosexuality is a disease).

For example, I have a disease called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which is a basically a lack of callogen in my bones. This gives me hyperflexibility and I can contort myself in ways that many people consider unnatural. However, it also gives me weak bones (I have had a total of 9 broken and fractured bones in my life) and fragile skin, so I can't participate in activities such as wrestling, football, skiing, any form of weight lifting, or any sport that puts pressure on my joints. Before I was diagnosed, I was in a wrestling league. I enjoyed it because I could contort my way out of almost any hold, but one day I fractured all of the toes on my right foot, and at the hospital I was diagnosed. I was not allowed to rejoin the league because of a trait that I was born with, even though I wanted to. This parallels homosexuality, being banned from some activity because of a trait that was there since birth. There may be a risk of serious injury for me, but at the same time there is a risk of damnation for homosexuals if they participate in their desired "activity." However, there is a possibility that I won't get injured at all, and there is a possibility that there will not be some post-mortem consequence for the homosexuals who act upon their homosexuality. I'm being separated from what I love, how is that different from being separated from what they love? Neither of us can help it. If I'm discriminating against homosexuals for not allowing them to get married, aren't I being discriminated against by my parents and doctors because I have a disability?

First of all animals do it because they don't know it's wrong, and usually because there are no females, for example, stick a male dog in a fence with another male, and a female, which one do you think it's going to go after? Point is they're animals they want to do it all the time, and if there aren't any females they'll settle for another male because they don't know it's wrong. And not because the dog is gay.

We have free will so we can decide through our actions whether we want to spend life after death
in eternal salvation, or damnation. God could have made homosexuality impossible but he left it possible so it could be a sin and we could decide whether or not to act on these impulses.

« Last edited by atroxletum on Jul 23rd 2009 »

On 23-Jul-2009 rate_me said:

Just because animals do it doesn't make it natural. It makes no logical sense why anything would evolve to have some members of the species to be homosexual and others not. It is a genetic fluke that occurs in a few members of the species like many hereditary diseases (I'm not saying homosexuality is a disease).

For example, I have a disease called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, which is a basically a lack of callogen in my bones. This gives me hyperflexibility and I can contort myself in ways that many people consider unnatural. However, it also gives me weak bones (I have had a total of 9 broken and fractured bones in my life) and fragile skin, so I can't participate in activities such as wrestling, football, skiing, any form of weight lifting, or any sport that puts pressure on my joints. Before I was diagnosed, I was in a wrestling league. I enjoyed it because I could contort my way out of almost any hold, but one day I fractured all of the toes on my right foot, and at the hospital I was diagnosed. I was not allowed to rejoin the league because of a trait that I was born with, even though I wanted to. This parallels homosexuality, being banned from some activity because of a trait that was there since birth. There may be a risk of serious injury for me, but at the same time there is a risk of damnation for homosexuals if they participate in their desired "activity." However, there is a possibility that I won't get injured at all, and there is a possibility that there will not be some post-mortem consequence for the homosexuals who act upon their homosexuality. I'm being separated from what I love, how is that different from being separated from what they love? Neither of us can help it. If I'm discriminating against homosexuals for not allowing them to get married, aren't I being discriminated against by my parents and doctors because I have a disability?

To be completely honest you are been discriminated against, though I don't think its because they don't want you to but the fact that if they did they would encounter massive legal problems, they are just covering their backs in case anything did go wrong which is different from not allowing homosexuality, no-one is going to get sued (well I'm sure someone, somewhere will still have a go). Just because we say it is 'right' to discriminate against some people does it mean that its right to discriminate against other cases as a matter of course?

Also if they turned round and said that you could go back to wrestling would you do it?

On 23-Jul-2009 atroxletum said:

First of all animals do it because they don't know it's wrong, and usually because there are no females, for example, stick a male dog in a fence with another male, and a female, which one do you think it's going to go after? Point is they're animals they want to do it all the time, and if there aren't any females they'll settle for another male because they don't know it's wrong. And not because the dog is gay.

We have free will so we can decide through our actions whether we want to spend life after death
in eternal salvation, or damnation. God could have made homosexuality impossible but he left it possible so it could be a sin and we could decide whether or not to act on these impulses.

So basically god created homosexuality as a bit of a trap to try and get as many people as possible to go to hell? If god loved us wouldn't he try to make there as few pitfalls as possible? Isn't it possible that if he didn't make it impossible its because he intended for it to happen?

As for the animals, what about the gay penguins, the zoo tried everything possible to get them apart and mate with females, providing loads of females yet they weren't interested and remained together. So do we say that these penguins are gay or not?

While we are at it, lets imagine that I live in some remote tribe somewhere and have never heard of the bible and I'm homosexual, thats fine because I don't know that it is wrong?

Just lumping animals together for the sake of answering, if it is just a genetic fluke then isn't that about as natural as you can get, your Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (afraid I don't know much about this so I'm assuming its genetic, please correct me if I'm wrong) is completely natural as are you, yet as it is due to a genetic fluke couldn't it be considered unnatural along with homosexuality, Albinism etc. All of these are completely natural.

« Last edited by super craig on Jul 23rd 2009 »

It's not a trap since we know it's sinful, and are able to decide not to.

The penguins may be gay. Who knows? It's fine for them to be gay because they can't sin, they can't
comprehend the idea of what sin is, or the idea of a god telling them not to sin.

If you're in some remote tribe, and you don't believe in God you're going to hell anyway because you
haven't accepted him, so it wouldn't matter if you were gay or not.

« Last edited by atroxletum on Jul 23rd 2009 »

On 23-Jul-2009 atroxletum said:

It's not a trap since we know it's sinful, and are able to decide not to.

The penguins may be gay. Who knows? It's fine for them to be gay because they can't sin, they can't
comprehend the idea of what sin is, or the idea of a god telling them not to sin.

If you're in some remote tribe, and you don't believe in God you're going to hell anyway because you
haven't accepted him, so it wouldn't matter if you were gay or not.

More exsistence of god than homosexuality but oh well. If people in that remote tribe are going to hell then does that mean that babies and people who are mentally disabled are also going to hell, after all they haven't accepted god?

So before the bible laid out that it was sinful and this is pretty much exclusively where we get the idea then people who lived before the bible and enaged in homosexual activitys are also going to hell despite the fact that no-one told them it was wrong.

So if it is fine for animals to be gay then whther or not it is right or wrong it is in both cases natural then?

Infants and mentally disabled people cannot comprehend the existence of God therefore, are excluded
from this rule.

I don't see it as unnatural, I view it as a sin it's natural, just wrong.

On 23-Jul-2009 super craig said:

To be completely honest you are been discriminated against, though I don't think its because they don't want you to but the fact that if they did they would encounter massive legal problems, they are just covering their backs in case anything did go wrong which is different from not allowing homosexuality, no-one is going to get sued (well I'm sure someone, somewhere will still have a go). Just because we say it is 'right' to discriminate against some people does it mean that its right to discriminate against other cases as a matter of course?

Also if they turned round and said that you could go back to wrestling would you do it?

They're already suing: http://www.wfrv.com/news/lo...8IA.cspx

Technically, I could sue either way. I could sue on the grounds of being discriminated because of a disability or I could sue if I got hurt. If they decided to let me go back in, I probably wouldn't do it again because I have gotten lazy and out of shape since then.

I don't get what you're trying to ask in that part about discrimination.

On 23-Jul-2009 super craig said:

So basically god created homosexuality as a bit of a trap to try and get as many people as possible to go to hell? If god loved us wouldn't he try to make there as few pitfalls as possible? Isn't it possible that if he didn't make it impossible its because he intended for it to happen?

As for the animals, what about the gay penguins, the zoo tried everything possible to get them apart and mate with females, providing loads of females yet they weren't interested and remained together. So do we say that these penguins are gay or not?

While we are at it, lets imagine that I live in some remote tribe somewhere and have never heard of the bible and I'm homosexual, thats fine because I don't know that it is wrong?

Just lumping animals together for the sake of answering, if it is just a genetic fluke then isn't that about as natural as you can get, your Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (afraid I don't know much about this so I'm assuming its genetic, please correct me if I'm wrong) is completely natural as are you, yet as it is due to a genetic fluke couldn't it be considered unnatural along with homosexuality, Albinism etc. All of these are completely natural.

If you live in some remote tribe and commit homosexual acts, but have never heard about God, then you can still go to Heaven if you live a selfless life and respect everyone else.

Human's wouldn't have free will if homosexuality was mentally impossible for us. God would have some form of control over us in that case.

Ehlers-Danlos is hereditary; I got it from my mother. From an evolutionary standpoint, I don't see why any species would evolve to have a tendancy that would make the members of the species unwilling to reproduce unless it was a conscious decision, or in my case, have fragile skeletons and skin. Neither helps the human race's progress in survival of the fittest.