Homosexuality Debates

On 23-Jul-2009 rate_me said:

If you live in some remote tribe and commit homosexual acts, but have never heard about God, then you can still go to Heaven if you live a selfless life and respect everyone else.

Human's wouldn't have free will if homosexuality was mentally impossible for us. God would have some form of control over us in that case.

Ehlers-Danlos is hereditary; I got it from my mother. From an evolutionary standpoint, I don't see why any species would evolve to have a tendancy that would make the members of the species unwilling to reproduce unless it was a conscious decision, or in my case, have fragile skeletons and skin. Neither helps the human race's progress in survival of the fittest.

I can see where you are coming from with the evolutionary stand point but equally I don't think it would hinder it either, if the entire species suddenly became gay then you would have a problem but a few members becoming gay isn't going to affect a healthy population. Also could it not be of benefit in populations where there was overcrowding, lots of competition etc by reducing the numbers of offspring and allowing those offspring that are around a better chance of survivial. I know this wouldn't be evolution as such since they couldn't pass the genes on.

Super craig are you saying we should act like animals then? And I guess since I have free will I can kill my neighbor, so since it's my decision I guess God will be alright with that. That's basically what you're saying with the we have free will so we can be homosexuals thing. God has rules too, but the case is with most humans they have to see it to believe it. Basically those people are just a bunch of kids waiting until the parents leave so they can break rules, but since as I explained before that God is not intervening with this sick world and stopping it yet, people doubt or even stop believing he exists, annd they just start to do whatever they want. If homosexual marriage is granted the world will be that much more dragged into it's own cess pool of sick things and "careful decisions".

Homosexuality is sick in YOUR opinion; not mine, nor the rest of the world. I consider it normal, actually.

By free will it is meant you can do anything as long as you don't HURT, harm in any way other living beings. That's why you can post here, be on a computer, go outside. However, you can't kill other human being, you can't hunt an animal just for fun. That's what free will is about.

So, now that you know what it is, think about it for a minute. Homosexuals are not harming you in any way, therefore, according to that principle, they can co-exist with us.

Then again, I still defend that homosexuality is not a choice, but a primal insist. Let's compare it to hunger, for example. You can spend two days without food, if you wish to starve. However, you're denying your primal instinct: you're still hungry nevertheless. You can hide it, but you can't choose to have it or not.

« Last edited by Vasco on Jul 24th 2009 »

No our own definition of free will can be varied. You only know the basic basic things which is only common sense to follow. We make choices by what we "think" is right or wrong, and I for one know that you can't be sure homosexuality is right. And because of your view of how the world was created(which I can easily prove wrong) you don't think I am right. We're all very stubborn about what we think is right, and if nobody is absolutely sure then this debate is getting boring. Oh and I guess since that prostitute I bought didn't harm me and I didn't harm her it was ok for the both of us to get together.

« Last edited by Black Mamba 19 on Jul 24th 2009 »

"No our own definition of free will can be varied (...)I for one know that you can't be sure homosexuality is right."
Then please, enlighten me with your incredible knowledge of why Homosexuality is wrong. I haven't seen a single argument from your side except "God says it is wrong".

God is fictional for all I care. I haven't seen real, concrete proof that He exists. I won't accept arguements coming from a person who accepts and believes in something that may not even exist. If you think about it, I too can do it: I now believe in a new, powerful being, ruler of the Universe, called Mr.A. Mr. A exists and accepts homosexuality, but he just can't be bothered to interfere with us and prove he is actually there. [sarcasm] My theory is great, yours are wrong. Plus, if you don't believe me and Mr. A, you shall go to a pit of fire. [/sarcasm] That's what I've been seeing.

"which I can easily prove wrong"
Please, go ahead an prove generations of scientists wrong. This shall be fun.

"if nobody is absolutely sure then this debate is getting boring."
...of course nobody will ever be absolutely sure. This is a debate after all, not an election where you vote for your favorite. Our "side" won't accept religion based opinions because they are irrelevant (as I said above), you won't accept logic because. Well, because. That's why this will continue.

"God says it is wrong."
See, that's exactly why I'm against homosexuality, for example if I wasn't a christian, homosexuality wouldn't bother me. My God tells me it's wrong, and because I believe in him, I listen. I'm not against homosexuality because I'm ignorantly biased against it, I have religious reasons.

"Which I can easily prove wrong"
No he can't prove them wrong, or right. That's what faith is entirely based on, belief, a person of faith doesn't sit there and analyze it to see whether it's right or not, they just believe. Nobody can prove whether a god exists or not so a debate over whether God exists will never end.

« Last edited by atroxletum on Jul 24th 2009 »

On 24-Jul-2009 Vasco said:

Homosexuality is sick in YOUR opinion; not mine, nor the rest of the world. I consider it normal, actually.

By free will it is meant you can do anything as long as you don't HURT, harm in any way other living beings. That's why you can post here, be on a computer, go outside. However, you can't kill other human being, you can't hunt an animal just for fun. That's what free will is about.

So, now that you know what it is, think about it for a minute. Homosexuals are not harming you in any way, therefore, according to that principle, they can co-exist with us.

Then again, I still defend that homosexuality is not a choice, but a primal insist. Let's compare it to hunger, for example. You can spend two days without food, if you wish to starve. However, you're denying your primal instinct: you're still hungry nevertheless. You can hide it, but you can't choose to have it or not.

That isn't what free will means. Free will means that humans have the ability to consciously choose their actions on their own. There are rules that God has about certain behaviors, but you can disobey them if you don't mind the consequence. I have the ability to say whatever I want here (taking the swear filter out of the equation), but if I say something that I shouldn't, then I get banned. If I want to get banned, I break the rules and get banned. Nobody is forcing me to follow the rules. Nobody is pressing the keys on the keyboard but me.

Homosexuals may be born gay, but they can choose to remain abstinent. If homosexuality is an instinct, then..., wait what? If you're homosexual, you must have homosexual intercourse because you have no choice? The urge to have sex with members of the same sex is really an instinct? If it's an instict, why don't I feel it? Am I asexual because I'm not gay? Can heterosexuals choose to have it or not? Why would homosexuality be an instict? Was I wrong that an instict was "An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli," and that it really is just lust?

Hey Vasco I don't believe in hell. And as far as evolution goes if this world was blasted into existence then how the hell did life ever start? Living matter can't be created from non-living matter. You still haven't found this supposed "missing link" either. And that "genius" Darwin catalogued these minor variations between bird beaks, which is not a new species. There hasn't been one animal EVER that has evolved into something entirely different, so there generations of "hard work" so easily disproven it makes me laugh I even bothered posting.

I'm doing this as it comes to me so sorry about the order I will address things.

I'll get the off topic evolution thing off first shall I. Black Mamba, as I 've already stated in the Exsistence of God thread, so well here it is. Let us take bacteria and superbugs in hospitals now, when we first started using antibiotics on a wide scale there was nothing like this, yet now we have bacteria that are resistant to our very strongest antibiotics and it has become a real problem. So why were bacteria then affected by them but now they aren't, either god created new bacteria (goes against the story of creation) or they are genetically different now to what they were before (evolution).

You still haven't found this supposed "missing link" either Now I'm no expert but doesn't the missing part sort of entail that? Christians still haven't found the ark while we on it, so by your very own logic it never exsisted.

Now to more on topic stuff.

@Black Mamba 19: 'Super craig are you saying we should act like animals then? And I guess since I have free will I can kill my neighbor, so since it's my decision I guess God will be alright with that'

Yes you can kill your neighbour, you can do what the hell you like that tends to be the nature of freewill. As Vasco has already pointed out there is a difference between homosexuality and murder, namely that homosexuality isn't hurting anyone. Are you seriously saying that if I kissed a man I'm as bad as someone who, I don't know, walks into a school and murders everyone in it?

If homosexual marriage is granted the world will be that much more dragged into it's own cess pool of sick things and "careful decisions".

Sorry to break it to you but it is already legal in some countries, yet I don't see those countries suddenly start to collapse, whereas if we look at middle eastern countries that are very strict on these matters, they don't seem to be doing quite so well.

As for the prostitue thing, if the prostitute is doing the job because she is forced to do it, pimps, drugs etc then that is wrong since your taking advantage of someones misfortunate for your own pleasure. However if you have sex with a consenting woman who willingly takes part for no forced reason then to be completely honest i can't see whats wrong.


Homosexuals may be born gay, but they can choose to remain abstinent. If homosexuality is an instinct, then..., wait what? If you're homosexual, you must have homosexual intercourse because you have no choice? The urge to have sex with members of the same sex is really an instinct? If it's an instict, why don't I feel it? Am I asexual because I'm not gay? Can heterosexuals choose to have it or not? Why would homosexuality be an instict? Was I wrong that an instict was "An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli," and that it really is just lust?

Just thought of a question but on the whole you can't commit homosexual acts but can be gay, can you share your love with someone of the same sex, without ever having sex etc is that still ok?

« Last edited by super craig on Jul 24th 2009 »

On 24-Jul-2009 super craig said:

I'm doing this as it comes to me so sorry about the order I will address things.

I'll get the off topic evolution thing off first shall I. Black Mamba, as I 've already stated in the Exsistence of God thread, so well here it is. Let us take bacteria and superbugs in hospitals now, when we first started using antibiotics on a wide scale there was nothing like this, yet now we have bacteria that are resistant to our very strongest antibiotics and it has become a real problem. So why were bacteria then affected by them but now they aren't, either god created new bacteria (goes against the story of creation) or they are genetically different now to what they were before (evolution).

You still haven't found this supposed "missing link" either Now I'm no expert but doesn't the missing part sort of entail that? Christians still haven't found the ark while we on it, so by your very own logic it never exsisted.

Now to more on topic stuff.

@Black Mamba 19: 'Super craig are you saying we should act like animals then? And I guess since I have free will I can kill my neighbor, so since it's my decision I guess God will be alright with that'

Yes you can kill your neighbour, you can do what the hell you like that tends to be the nature of freewill. As Vasco has already pointed out there is a difference between homosexuality and murder, namely that homosexuality isn't hurting anyone. Are you seriously saying that if I kissed a man I'm as bad as someone who, I don't know, walks into a school and murders everyone in it?

If homosexual marriage is granted the world will be that much more dragged into it's own cess pool of sick things and "careful decisions".

Sorry to break it to you but it is already legal in some countries, yet I don't see those countries suddenly start to collapse, whereas if we look at middle eastern countries that are very strict on these matters, they don't seem to be doing quite so well.

As for the prostitue thing, if the prostitute is doing the job because she is forced to do it, pimps, drugs etc then that is wrong since your taking advantage of someones misfortunate for your own pleasure. However if you have sex with a consenting woman who willingly takes part for no forced reason then to be completely honest i can't see whats wrong.


Homosexuals may be born gay, but they can choose to remain abstinent. If homosexuality is an instinct, then..., wait what? If you're homosexual, you must have homosexual intercourse because you have no choice? The urge to have sex with members of the same sex is really an instinct? If it's an instict, why don't I feel it? Am I asexual because I'm not gay? Can heterosexuals choose to have it or not? Why would homosexuality be an instict? Was I wrong that an instict was "An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli," and that it really is just lust?

Just thought of a question but on the whole you can't commit homosexual acts but can be gay, can you share your love with someone of the same sex, without ever having sex etc is that still ok?

I believe that it is okay.

I haven't read right through this thread, but I guess I just wanted to give my opinion.

I'm a gay guy, and I'm also very politically conservative which is not a good mix.

Is it a choice? No, it's definitely not a choice, not for me anyway. No way would I choose to be gay. It sux! But you have to make the best of a bad situation and accept what you've been given.

But I also don't think you're born that way. I actually think it's entirely in your upbringing. My Dad wasn't in my life when I was young. I had no brothers, only sisters. I only had aunties and great aunties, no uncles or great uncles. I have only female cousins.

I don't like being gay because I desperately would love to have kids one day, amongst other reasons.

Gay rights: I don't believe in gay "marriage", the word marriage has such a connection with the church and the church has made it clear it doesn't like gays. I believe in equal rights for gays though, and I am very happy that some countries (e.g. Britain, where I live) have "Civil Unions" which give the same rights as marriage but with a different name.

I have to be honest that if I were straight, and as conservative as I am, I would probably not like gays, but that would be because I didn't understand them. I KNOW I'm conservative because of how I was brought up.

I Poke Badgers With Spoons, I want your explanation as to why you and sarah.beverly match IP Addresses.

On 24-Jul-2009 poke.addicted said:

I Poke Badgers With Spoons, I want your explanation as to why you and sarah.beverly match IP Addresses.

Busted!

Super craig that is not evolution it is the same bacteria, but just more immune to antibiotics. I guess if I painted my dog white he would be entirely different in all aspects. You see evolution can't be used in creation because it just doesn't fit. We are all different races different languages based on where we live and what our lifestyle is, the same thing goes for animals or anything for that matter. You still haven't given me an example of something that evolved entirely into another thing, but you're welcome to try. And if science can't recreate things like how a plant goes through photosynthesis, then how could it have just evolved by random acccident, it makes no sense.

On topic, the Middle Eastern Countries are doing bad? China can end the U.S. in a day by cutting of exports and manufacturing, and they also hold a lot of loans we owe them, so they're doing pretty good. And it's sad of you to say that just because they don't allow homosexuals they starve and get diseases. And I said nothing of the country collapsing or anything like that. And that murder thing stop saying it's worse than homosexuality because I know it is, and that was not even the point of my comparison.

That's the point of evolution, it is the same kind of bacteria, just evolved into one that is immune to the antibiotics. Evolution doesn't change a creature into something different, it enhances that creature.

For the record, I don't believe in the theory of evolution, I'm just saying that you're not arguing your point very well.

On 25-Jul-2009 Black Mamba 19 said:

Super craig that is not evolution it is the same bacteria, but just more immune to antibiotics. I guess if I painted my dog white he would be entirely different in all aspects. You see evolution can't be used in creation because it just doesn't fit. We are all different races different languages based on where we live and what our lifestyle is, the same thing goes for animals or anything for that matter. You still haven't given me an example of something that evolved entirely into another thing, but you're welcome to try. And if science can't recreate things like how a plant goes through photosynthesis, then how could it have just evolved by random acccident, it makes no sense.

On topic, the Middle Eastern Countries are doing bad? China can end the U.S. in a day by cutting of exports and manufacturing, and they also hold a lot of loans we owe them, so they're doing pretty good. And it's sad of you to say that just because they don't allow homosexuals they starve and get diseases. And I said nothing of the country collapsing or anything like that. And that murder thing stop saying it's worse than homosexuality because I know it is, and that was not even the point of my comparison.

You go to hell for commiting murder, you go to hell for commiting homosexual acts (or at least don't get into heaven, paradise etc) so how can you say that one is worse than the other when they carry the same sentence so to speak? If that isn't what you mean it is certainly the message that keeps getting sent out.

Its difficult to debate evolution with you because you've already come up with your own definition of it, one which is totally different to the general idea put forward by the scientific community. What you basically want to see is a human giving birth to a dragon, something completed different to the parents, well thats just not how evolution works. As atroxletum has touched upon its all about small, note SMALL changes. The 'new' bacteria have properties that are different to what it did have, that my friend is evolution, or at least evidence for. Look up any decent book or website for a proper idea of what evolution is. Anyway if small changes aren't evolution, a small change like being homosexual (-not evolution but genetics at any rate), must be the work of god then?

We are all different races different languages based on where we live and what our lifestyle is, the same thing goes for animals or anything for that matter.

I'm not quite sure what you are using this as evidence for. If god created only 2 people to start with wouldn't everyone have the same language etc since everyone would be directly descended? That idea fits more to evolution, that things living apart will adapt in different ways.

On topic, the Middle Eastern Countries are doing bad? China can end the U.S. in a day by cutting of exports and manufacturing, and they also hold a lot of loans we owe them, so they're doing pretty good. And it's sad of you to say that just because they don't allow homosexuals they starve and get diseases. And I said nothing of the country collapsing or anything like that. And that murder thing stop saying it's worse than homosexuality because I know it is, and that was not even the point of my comparison.

China is doing relatively well (we'll ignore human rights for the time being), I'm not sure what area you class as the middle east but this is the area I am on about. Sorry for the source but its just nice and quick. As for the collasping thing I do appologise, I thought you were alluding to the fact that society would fall apart etc that has been mentioned somewhere in the past and I ended up answering that more than your own post.

And it's sad of you to say that just because they don't allow homosexuals they starve and get diseases Not what I was saying, I said that banning it hasn't done them any good, not that they were in that situation because they banned it.

« Last edited by super craig on Jul 25th 2009 »

So you're saying if I slowly evolved from a monkey over a huge amount of time, I would end up human. Awesome so where are all these people in between the monkey and human change? That is where evolution is mistaken. Ok and give me an example of an animal millions of years ago that has evolved into something completely different.

« Last edited by Black Mamba 19 on Jul 25th 2009 »

On 25-Jul-2009 Black Mamba 19 said:

So you're saying if I slowly evolved from a monkey over a huge amount of time, I would end up human. Awesome so where are all these people in between the monkey and human change? That is where evolution is mistaken. Ok and give me an example of an animal millions of years ago that has evolved into something completely different.

See that bird over there? That used to be a T-Rex.

On 24-Jul-2009 Vasco said:

Homosexuality is sick in YOUR opinion; not mine, nor the rest of the world. I consider it normal, actually.

By free will it is meant you can do anything as long as you don't HURT, harm in any way other living beings. That's why you can post here, be on a computer, go outside. However, you can't kill other human being, you can't hunt an animal just for fun. That's what free will is about.

So, now that you know what it is, think about it for a minute. Homosexuals are not harming you in any way, therefore, according to that principle, they can co-exist with us.

Then again, I still defend that homosexuality is not a choice, but a primal insist. Let's compare it to hunger, for example. You can spend two days without food, if you wish to starve. However, you're denying your primal instinct: you're still hungry nevertheless. You can hide it, but you can't choose to have it or not.

Before I go on reading, I wish to correct a statement I read in this post.


Comparing being gay to being homosexual =/=. You can't do it. Why? Simple really. While, yes, you will be hungry, and you can hide it, there's a major difference.

If you don't eat, you will die.

If you don't have sex with another man, you WON'T die.

There's a matter of distinction of instinct, and of a matter of life or death.

Now I continue reading.

On 25-Jul-2009 rate_me said:

See that bird over there? That used to be a T-Rex.

Rate me I swear you better be kidding about what you just said.